Gave in. Removed All Fish. Next steps? (Ich, Velvet)

[tonypittman]

Even after using a QT, ich and/or velvet began to take over.

So, after trying to combat it with daily water changes, enhanced diet, etc, I finally decided to do the impossible and catch all of my fish.

After several hours of chasing down:

Pair of percula clowns,
Yellow Tang
Tomini Tang
Mimic Tang
Fiji Damsel
Flame Angel

I finally have all of the fish out of the display.

Clowns + Flame Angel + Damsel are in one QT.

Tangs are in a 55g QT.

All are currently being treated with CopperSafe.

NOW: What next steps should I take to make sure that the display remains parasite free once I finally put fish back into it?

I'm thinking I need to treat with CopperSafe for 6-8 weeks.
Then, I plan 2-3 weeks of Prazi Pro treatment.

Should I then be OK to start putting fish back into the display?

 

[Mrscribbled]

Twelve weeks is the minimum I like to see a tank go fallow. Did you loose your powder blue hybrid, that had a hook worm on its eye ?

 

[tonypittman]

A 10-minute freshwater dip did away with the worm, thankfully. Now, that hybrid powder blue is in the 55g QT with the other tangs. I didn't list him above as one I had to "chase down" because he was already in quarantine, having been removed at the very first signs of the disease outbreak.

Thanks for the advice. WOW...12 weeks is a long time!!

I guess I'll add a few nice corals to the display ASAP so that I can minimize new introductions after the fallow period.

I'm trying this, but something tells me there is really no way to avoid these parasites 100%. They seem to always find a way in!!!

 

[BossHoggin]

If you treat the fish properly with the right copper level for long enough, treat with prazi, and leave the tank fallow for 10 weeks I guarantee you will have success. Keep water quality up in the quarantine the whole time and you should be good.

 

[tonypittman]

Well, these diseases can certainly be confounding!

So, after catching all of the above fish, I put them in the 55 gallon QT that I had set up to house my prized possession - Powder Blue tang...beautiful specimen. This Tang had been by itself in the QT, doing wonderfully - eating everything, including Formula 2, Pellets, Nori...

So, I added the other captured fish and dosed Coppersafe to the recommended 1.0 ppm.

All looked well. Fish captured. Safely in QT. Copper at work.

Well, to my dismay, in just a few hours the infected fish from the DT were doing fine, looking good, but the previously great looking Powder Blue was COVERED in a hideous coat of velvet-like slime. I was beside myself, to say the least. I thought that Copper would have prevented this from happening.

Well, I thought about adding some Maracyn to the tank. By the time I was able to get the Maracyn and get back to the tank, things were looking much better though. The velvety coating was gone. There were still some tell-tale white spots on the head and body....but I was encouraged, so I held off on adding the Maracyn.

Is there something I did wrong? Is it normal that a fish could be assaulted this way despite coppersafe being added to the QT?

I wish I had had another large QT to put him in separately, but I did all that I could.

Confounded....

 

[wooden_reefer]

Well, these diseases can certainly be confounding!

So, after catching all of the above fish, I put them in the 55 gallon QT that I had set up to house my prized possession - Powder Blue tang...beautiful specimen. This Tang had been by itself in the QT, doing wonderfully - eating everything, including Formula 2, Pellets, Nori...

So, I added the other captured fish and dosed Coppersafe to the recommended 1.0 ppm.

All looked well. Fish captured. Safely in QT. Copper at work.

Well, to my dismay, in just a few hours the infected fish from the DT were doing fine, looking good, but the previously great looking Powder Blue was COVERED in a hideous coat of velvet-like slime. I was beside myself, to say the least. I thought that Copper would have prevented this from happening.

Well, I thought about adding some Maracyn to the tank. By the time I was able to get the Maracyn and get back to the tank, things were looking much better though. The velvety coating was gone. There were still some tell-tale white spots on the head and body....but I was encouraged, so I held off on adding the Maracyn.

Is there something I did wrong? Is it normal that a fish could be assaulted this way despite coppersafe being added to the QT?

I wish I had had another large QT to put him in separately, but I did all that I could.

Confounded....

In a closed system, many types of pathogens can multiply in large numbers.

The biggest threat is ich and other protozoans.

The next is pathogenic bacteria.

In a QT, because fish from many parts of the world are collected and placed together, it can be a pathogen time bomb if not well-considered.

I always consider both protozoan and bacterial diseases in DT at the same time, and any setup should better not interfere with control of either.

Against protozoans, I need hypo or copper. Against bacterial, the first line of defense is the UV. As first line, I will not use any drug that is degraded by UV.

Is maracyn Erythromycin? This drug tends to affect nitrobacter bacteria more than nitrosonomas so there will be much less ammonia than nitrite. Some nitrite may do little harm, as long as there is no ammonia.

As long as there is no bacterial infection, I do not need to use a drug that harms nitrification bacteria, there will be no ammonia for the many weeks of treatment to eradicate ich (and get the fish to acquire immunity against the bacteria), I need to do very little in QT for many weeks. I never feel the need to hurry unless there is bacterial infection. So the two are related, so I must have UV and treatment to eradicate ich.

 

[tonypittman]

So are you suggesting that it was bacteria that attacked the Powder Blue? I never added any Maracyn, so whatever attacked the Powder Blue seemed to be vulnerable to the copper treatment within the first 24 hours....unless I am being fooled and there is something else attacking the fish that I have not yet seen visually.

I think I have a UV I can add to the system.

 

[wooden_reefer]

So are you suggesting that it was bacteria that attacked the Powder Blue? I never added any Maracyn, so whatever attacked the Powder Blue seemed to be vulnerable to the copper treatment within the first 24 hours....unless I am being fooled and there is something else attacking the fish that I have not yet seen visually.

I think I have a UV I can add to the system.

Pathogenic bacteria is very common. If a fish does not suffer from ich or other protozoans, the chance of bacterial infection becomes salient. Many fish in the hands of the newbie die from ich before pathogenic bacteria becomes a problem. If you take from those that survive ich, bacterial infection will be the next to consider.

A UV must be sized for the QT and DT and the flow rate must be appropriate, generally much slower than many realize. Often a bypass is needed or a separate pump is needed.

 

[tonypittman]

So, I added the Saltwater Maracyn (erythromycin) to see if this will help sort out the remaining issues in the QT. These are the times that try reefkeepers' souls!

I thought I had done the heroic thing by going for moving all fish into the QT so that I can get back to a parasite-free DT. I may end up with the clean DT, but given the surprising outbreak in the QT, I may have to start over on the fish-side....still confounded!

 

[tonypittman]

Also, WOW...Glad I saw this before re-installing my 40W UV.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=16+2154&aid=2855

What are the limitations and potentially harmful side effects of UV sterilizers?

Many medications can be "denatured" by the UV light, so the sterilizer should be turned off when using medications, especially chelated copper treatments. The UV light will "break" the bond of the chelating agent, and the aquarium will have a sudden, lethal concentration of ionic copper.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Also, WOW...Glad I saw this before re-installing my 40W UV.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=16+2154&aid=2855

What are the limitations and potentially harmful side effects of UV sterilizers?

Many medications can be "denatured" by the UV light, so the sterilizer should be turned off when using medications, especially chelated copper treatments. The UV light will "break" the bond of the chelating agent, and the aquarium will have a sudden, lethal concentration of ionic copper.

UV has many limitations. It degrades or denatures some medications.

Straight copper is not affected by UV; I use straight copper.

Even with all the limitations, I will never go without the UV as the first line of prevention of bacterial infection.

The limitations are irrelevant often enough and the benefits of the UV is important enough to use it definitely. The UV once properly set up, is low maintenance and effective enough for its deployment.

 

[tonypittman]

@wooden_reefer

I have nothing against UV. I'm just glad I realized I couldn't use it with CopperSafe (chelated copper).

Once I finally get past this disease outbreak and get everyone re-established in the DT, UV will probably be in use 24x7!

 

[wooden_reefer]

@wooden_reefer

I have nothing against UV. I'm just glad I realized I couldn't use it with CopperSafe (chelated copper).

Once I finally get past this disease outbreak and get everyone re-established in the DT, UV will probably be in use 24x7!

The UV is the most important for about four-six months after the introduction of the last livestock.

The bacteria not waterborne will not be checked, but some of this will be waterborne and the fish will be exposed to very low concentration of it. Hopefully such low exposure will induce immunity.

It is generally true that after six months of low exposure to a bacteria, many fish will have developed immunity.

Bacteria is not ich, gradually developed immunity after low exposure is a factor.

Flow rate has to be slow. about 8-10 gal per hour per watt is about right, so generally a bypass or a separate small pump is needed.