geothermal chiller

"marco im not being critical, just trying to enlighten. this is such a great idea/system, i dont want anyone to be scarred away."

It's not the water in the loop that's the concern it's the copper in that water.
And once again it's a concern not a criticisim, it warrants discussion not defense.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7344968#post7344968 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Marco67
"marco im not being critical, just trying to enlighten. this is such a great idea/system, i dont want anyone to be scarred away."

It's not the water in the loop that's the concern it's the copper in that water.
And once again it's a concern not a criticisim, it warrants discussion not defense.
Click to expand...

i thought we were discussing it?

of course its not the water. why would any one be afraid of plain pure water. unless of course you had too much.
its all about the copper and i thought you made that clear. and i thought i was clear in our discussion.

so what does a person who only uses tap water do? do they use a copper remover? does all their livestock die?
if you had to pour something into your fish tank what would it be;
1. antifreeze
2. freon (or r134a, whatever)
3. tap water

so which system do you think would be safest?
 
Doug,
You make some good points, but honestly you need to tone it down a bit, your posts are coming off very condescending. I'm not criticizing your system and I'm not some newbie kid here. I'm posting some very legit concerns and hoping for some input from someone with some experience with running geo cooling. If your comfortable sinking your loop without any further discussion, I would say go for it. Myself I'm looking at potentially saving the cost and operating expense of running 7 chillers, so for me I'm going to discuss, read and consider any input.
This is a great thread with lots of great info to consider, lets keep it all coming. Thanks to all.
Marc
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7345133#post7345133 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by douggiestyle


so what does a person who only uses tap water do? do they use a copper remover? does all their livestock die?
if you had to pour something into your fish tank what would it be;
1. antifreeze
2. freon (or r134a, whatever)
3. tap water

so which system do you think would be safest?
Click to expand...

Well antifreeze and freon were never in the running from the start, as far as tap water goes; I think there are some negitives there too, although not catastrophic, there is a potiential of clorine, clorimine, phosphates, different bacterias etc, etc I think I would and will be much more comfortable using RO. As far as the copper goes ...good point, when I get some time later I'll test tap water for copper and see what comes up.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7345189#post7345189 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Marco67
Well antifreeze and freon were never in the running from the start, as far as tap water goes; I think there are some negitives there too, although not catastrophic, there is a potiential of clorine, clorimine, phosphates, different bacterias etc, etc I think I would and will be much more comfortable using RO. As far as the copper goes ...good point, when I get some time later I'll test tap water for copper and see what comes up.
Click to expand...

do not confuse condecension with keeping it simple.

freon is used in commercial chillers (commercial chillers are commonly used in this hobby).
the antifreeze is a suggestion that has been used in some other geo chiller posts.
the point with tap water is not that we should all be testing it. just that tap water is used by many with few problems. alot of us have used it in emergencies. your tap water runs through copper pipe.
now again im only using logic. if i have used 100% tap water in my tank (with the addition of salt mix:)) and had 0 casualties id say tap water is pretty safe (at least in my area).
if one is using an ro/di system the possibility exists that it could leak tap water into the tank. i dont hear anybody being critical of ro/di systems.

so this water leaking is NOT an issue. i have more fear of it leaking someplace else and flooding my basement. i dont want leaks.

again i am not being critical of you marco. this is not an attack. this is to eliminate fears of all who may have read your original post showing concern over having copper pipe in this type of system, that is not in contact with your tank water.
also might add that the freon in a commercial chiller flows through a copper condensor.
 
I'm not an HVAC guy ...but isn't freon under pressure a gas?
How that relates to water picking up copper from pipes I'm not sure?
Now as far as our discussion here goes; I'm leaning toward using the copper myself.
But Copper is and always be a concern in a reef, so that being said, it is only prudent that we consider reducing the risk of it's introduction. Don't worry about scaring away a newbie, just the idea of digging up the back yard to plumb a fish tank will do that :D
I've read a lot of people using some level of salt in the lines as an antifreeze. I think (but I'd love confirmation from someone in the know) that pure RO would be less likely to corrode a copper pipe and therefore be less likely to pick up copper. I like failsafes and design them into my systems whenever possible.... the failsafe here being; if we cut the risk of copper in the cooling loop and at the same time do everything possible to cut down the risk of a leak, now ..I like the odds.
Of course in order to be using pure water for the cooling loop, one would need to be sure to be below the frost line (here in sand @32").
Marc
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7345545#post7345545 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Marco67
I'm not an HVAC guy ...but isn't freon under pressure a gas?
How that relates to water picking up copper from pipes I'm not sure?
Now as far as our discussion here goes; I'm leaning toward using the copper myself.
But Copper is and always be a concern in a reef, so that being said, it is only prudent that we consider reducing the risk of it's introduction. Don't worry about scaring away a newbie, just the idea of digging up the back yard to plumb a fish tank will do that :D
I've read a lot of people using some level of salt in the lines as an antifreeze. I think (but I'd love confirmation from someone in the know) that pure RO would be less likely to corrode a copper pipe and therefore be less likely to pick up copper. I like failsafes and design them into my systems whenever possible.... the failsafe here being; if we cut the risk of copper in the cooling loop and at the same time do everything possible to cut down the risk of a leak, now ..I like the odds.
Of course in order to be using pure water for the cooling loop, one would need to be sure to be below the frost line (here in sand @32").
Marc
Click to expand...

most agreed.
like the newbie comment :rollface:

no my point with the freon is that commercial chillers use it and people trust them. when in reality if it failed im sure it would be nasty. so why are people not saying "hey this thing could leak and be very bad for my fish". they should be. at least before they say the same about this geo chiller.

actually gas will eventually become a liquid when compressed. forcing the atoms/molecules closer together. that is why when you release compressed gas it gets cold. it needs to expand which takes heat. so it sucks the heat out of its surrounding. when you compress something it creates heat. the heat in it is no longer needed so it is released.
 
I was just talking to the guys down at Aquatic ecosystems, and one of them brought up a good point about the copper. "the copper in tap water isnt and issue because the water runs throught the pipe once. In this loop it will be circulating over and over again"....Hmmm something to think about, Maybe a water change once in a while would be in order? once again only as a failsafe.
BTW they have a product that may be worth a look http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/9248/cid/2224
Marc
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7344526#post7344526 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chicken
Cuby2k I am going to have two titanium heat exchangers, one for each of my tanks. Those in turn will have a circulation pump from the 200g reservoir that gets kicked on as needed.
Click to expand...

Ah, sorry chicken, I didn't understand that. Thanks for taking the time to clear it up for me. Good luck and please share your results . . .when/if.
 
That was my assumption with the copper pipe the water would get higher and higher copper concentration as it ages in the pipe. However would the copper reach a upper limit when th o2 runs out or would it still take on high levels albet slower. But my point earlier was that all system have risks and each must be considered. Copper in a tank would wipe it out probably just as fast as coolant or freon.
 
ro would more likely absorb more copper than tap. tap water has additives such as polyphosphates and silicates. the purpose of these are to prevent corrosion in the pipes. by removing those (using ro/di water) you would, in theory, increase the amount of copper disolved into the water. also i do not know as to what point of copper saturation the water in this system could acheive. that number may be the same as or close to tap water. so this could be a non-issue even though the same water is in contact with the copper tubing.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7346579#post7346579 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by douggiestyle
notice that water that has sat in a copper line without use is almost always red (iron) and not green (copper).
Click to expand...

sorry, this is a pretty stupid statement now that i think about it.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7346537#post7346537 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by douggiestyle
ro would more likely absorb more copper than tap. tap water has additives such as polyphosphates and silicates. the purpose of these are to prevent corrosion in the pipes. by removing those (using ro/di water) you would, in theory, increase the amount of copper disolved into the water. also i do not know as to what point of copper saturation the water in this system could acheive. that number may be the same as or close to tap water. so this could be a non-issue even though the same water is in contact with the copper tubing.
Click to expand...
That makes sense
 
In the real world, the issue of leaking copper into or through your exchanger and into your sump is a non-issue. It is just after item 943 "your 4-year old dumps a canister of Drano directly into your tank".
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7352333#post7352333 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by douggiestyle
thanks cuby, thats what i was trying to express. you put it a little more elloquently.

drainos bad, right?
Click to expand...

hehe . . . Draino bad, 4-year old good.
 
Marc, if only that heat exchanger were titanium, it would be looking good. I don't think aluminum will do a reef tank much good.

Would a standard di-electric (I think that is what it's called) fitting make a problem free transition from copper to titanium? Also, to be safe, the titanium would have to extend out of the tank and down the outside of the tank before connecting to copper.

So PVC is not an option because it allows O2 into the system??? Do I have that right?

Joe
 
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