Getting Certified

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14726586#post14726586 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tgreene
I really do like the doubles concept a whole lot more though, but that obviosly would require a BP/W right off the bat...

*Ahem*

I will try desperately not to tell you I told you so.

Wow... Just got certified and you've already outgrown your first BC. :)

...which isn't something that I can jump straight into due to costs.

Yeah, you told me that last time... Then blew a perfectly good $100 or so on something besides a BP/wing. Would be nice to have that money now, eh? Add whatever you spent on that pony, and you'd be well on your way toward a backplate and wing. :)

Sorry, man... I love ya - don't be ticked 'cause I'm being a jerk. :D

Hey, the good news is that you got a "smokin deal" on your BC, and you should be able to get that back out of it by selling it... At least, that's what you told me. :)


In regards to the "cool looking" Tec guy, my AL80 is candy apple red, and I would certainly have to match it with another red tank, which is something that I have yet to see with doubles setups... I even have that gay tank mesh to keep my cylinder from getting scratched up!

We jokingly refer to it as "Rule 6: Always look cool." The joke will be funnier when you hear rules 1-5. :)

By all means - buy another red AL80 to go with the one you've got now - that's definitely a "looks cool" classification.

I know you don't want to hear this yet either, but I'll go ahead and tell you now, so it'll make sense when you realize it on your own: Strip your tanks. Go paintless. They'll last a lot longer that way, and won't pit when you don't get all of the water out from beneath the paint where you've scratched your tanks. You also won't feel bad when your dive buddy carelessly throws them in the back of his pickup truck, and you'll be able to ditch the queer little plastic net (sorry - you called it "gay" - I'm just agreeing), which doesn't cover everything anyway, and gets in the way of your tank straps... Not to mention scratches a nice "net" pattern into your pretty paint.

You'll also be more inclined to accept a tank that your buddy gives you when he decides that he's giving up scuba diving... Color won't matter to you, since it's coming off anyway.

Use an aerosol paint stripper - with the valve on (then rinse everything and replace the valve o-ring with a new, viton one) - that you can pick up at Auto Zone called "Aircraft Remover." Be sure to wear gloves and a respiratory mask - the stuff is nasty, but will strip to bare metal in minutes. Follow up with a light hand sanding, and presto - new tanks. Do it every couple of years to keep that "new tank" look (see Rule 6). :)


In regards to my earlier comments about a BP/W setup, the plan was/is to set it up for doubles because caves are definately in the cards for me.

I can't say that I blame you. And even if they weren't, I can't imagine anyone looking at a shipwreck and not wanting to explore inside, which is also a hard overhead environment... Or deep diving (130 ft plus), which means mandatory staged decompression... Also a doubles situation (what is called "soft overhead").

...In fact, once you've started diving doubles and you get trained in staged decompression diving, you suddenly realize that you no longer have an NDL... Doubles are definitely a prerequisite, but boy, does it open up the possibilities. 100' for two hours? No problem, with the right gas management... Cave penetration four miles? No problem, with the right gas management... 250' shipwreck? The bottom of the Oriskany? Wanna see the planes in that WWII shipwreck? Wanna check out the 'Doria? Right gas management... Right training... Right gear. It's all a walk in the park.

...The funny thing is that your average 35' drift dive in Bonaire will benefit, too... In computer-speak, we call it "backwards compatible." Same with diving, and same with doubles and a BP/wing... All of that stuff is backwards compatible, which is to say that suddenly, everything becomes a lot more fun as you get to know bigger and bigger extremes in your diving.

The way I was trained, there is no difference between "rec" diving and "tech" diving... That's a made-up term put in place by those divers who consider dive gear "beach toys" instead of "life support." The logic is faulty... Just like the term, "no decompression diving." EVERY dive is a decompression dive... It's just that when your obligation is very little, you can kinda get away with only decompressing at 30ft/minute. Sound familiar? How 'bout a "safety stop?" Guess what that is... Staged decompression! Don't let anyone tell you that you're doing a "no-decompression dive" or that you have a "no-decompression limit" or "NDL." That's hogwash - you just haven't been taught how to handle any situation that requires you to ascend slower than 30 ft/minute yet, because it requires gas management.

...Which up to this point is probably simply, "Be back on the boat with 500 psi." You're going to hate that one, too, when you realize what the real deal is with that one.

Sell your pony and your BC and get a used BP/wing (PM me for places to check) for pretty darned close to the same price. Quit telling me that you can't afford to do it right. My bet is that you spent more than that on food for the weekend getting certified. Next time, pack a sandwich if you really feel like you need to recoup the money. :)

BP/wings generally don't wear out - so expect that unlike the "latest and greatest BC," a good BP/wing will only be marginally cheaper than a new one... But will serve all of your needs no matter what kind of diving you do.

And enjoy your red tanks while they last. :) Then strip them when they violate Rule 6.

Oh, and welcome to the Dark Side. :D
 
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I haven't bought a Pony yet, and likely won't be doing that now with all of your advice above... However, if I do decide that I need it in the interim, it could always be shifted to use as a stage bottle. ;)

The only thing where I may have screwed the pooch would be on the BC, but I do not regret going that route initially since nobody around here knows anything about or dives a BP/W. Our LDS has claimes to have never used or sold them.

Since my wife is now beginning to show an interest, but will certainly be "fair weather" only, I can put her into my BC without any regrets, allowing me to upgrade as I progress. As I learn to understand my gear and use it better with each successive dive, I'm confident that it will make me a better diver. As my skills improve and advance, then I simply need to upgrade a single piece of equipment because everything else is of higher quality. My computer is a Gekko which would also serve my wife quite well, allowing me to step up to an AI such as the Cobra or even a Viper plus a set of analogs for backup, but that's really not even necessary since the Gekko is plenty capable.

Baby steps! ;)

-Tim
 
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Yep - and I completely agree with you... As I said before, ANYTHING that gets you in the water and gets you diving is a good thing, so in that regard your BC is a fine piece of gear. I don't blame you for not regretting the BC purchase - it's got you diving, and it's something that your wife or your next dive buddy can use, too. I have four or five of them sitting around my garage at the moment, ready for the countless friends of mine who say to me, "Hey, can you show me how to dive?" I'm not an instructor (and don't want to be - God help those poor souls), but I am a PADI Divemaster - which means that it's politically correct for me to put a BC and tank on a friend and let them see what it's like to breathe underwater in my pool. You know, as if I was worried about political correctness... :D

Anyway, you'll still find uses for your BC, for sure, so use the heck out of it. Whenever one is given to me, I either hang it up in the garage for a buddy or strip it of it's usable parts (which then go into the parts bin) and ditch the faded, blown bladders and no-longer-sticky Velcro cummerbund. Some of them have plastic backplates in them (complete with 1" crotch strap attachments) that can be mildly useful for children, too. :)

What you're finding about your LDS is probably completely true - and I'm not surprised. In fact, many of them have never even heard of such a thing. I'm surprised if I DON'T get funny looks when I visit a dive shop when I'm out of town (none here). Asking a dive shop geek about BP/wings is kinda like asking a salesman at your local Toyota dealer if he knows what a 12-bolt posi is... Or asking a Buick salesman if he knows the difference between a turbocharger and a supercharger. Despite what appearances are, the LDS is largely educated about diving through manufacturer's reps... In other words, by Scubapro or AquaLung or Cressi or whatever line they carry - who's major responsibility is to introduce and promote their new lineup of BC's. Talk to those who get their dive education from DIVING, however, and you'll find a much different story - one that is rooted in practicality, reliability, ruggedness, dependability, and performance. Those who obtain their education from diving, and not from the people selling the product, are typically slow to embrace new technology, while those interested in selling product embrace it even in the face of the complete failure of a new product (see the Mares HUB for example).

...So congratulations. You've just found the scuba equivalent of the difference between car guys and truck guys... Harley guys and crotch rocket guys... Rock and roll guys and techno guys... You get the idea. :)

What I find really entertaining is that every year, there's much fanfare about some new, improved incredible thingamabob that if you dive without, you're gonna die. Not to imply that technology is pointless (it's not), but c'mon, man... If there was really an improvement on something EVERY year, then either we started in the beginning with stuff that didn't work at all, or we're using stuff today that is so insanely great that it'll take you to the moon and back while doing your laundry, filling your bank account, and taking care of your "manly needs" at the same time. It's just not the case.

Heck, just over the past five years, I've read so much about fins being "faster, with less effort" that you'd swear if you just put them on, they'll take you to France and back with one single kick. It's all marketing hype, my friend. The next time someone tells you that "these fins are faster" or "they require less effort," ask them, "as compared to what?" Then ask them to see the data that backs up that claim... And I don't mean a test by some entity that's being paid by the manufacturer of the fins tested. :)

Look, the only "effortless" movement you're going to get underwater is a drift dive or scooter dive. The latter, you can control, but is going to cost you a couple grand for the good ones or a couple hundred for the disposable ones. There simply isn't any magic out there, other than that which is in the mind of the marketing guru that writes the ads.

...Who is being paid by the company that invented a solution to a problem that didn't exist in the first place... And then "educates" the LDS... Who gives that information to you. A BP/wing? No way. If the LDS began carrying them (there are a few in N. FL), then what would they do next year - make a bigger, better, improved BP/wing? I mean, there'd be nothing more to sell.

...And heck, they'd sell ONE BP/wing, and never see the customer again... He'd be diving and only come back once every couple of years to get some more webbing for $12. It'd be retail suicide.

Do I seem a bit embittered? Do I seem a tad cynical? I don't mean to sound that way... But you're talking to a guy that's been in this industry - as a buyer, not a seller - for decades. Every year they pitch stuff to me and try to get me to spend thousands on all-new equipment, which MIGHT be justified if it was better than the stuff I already have. They just don't get it. Instead they waste my time and theirs and come up with some new-fangled gizmo that costs me time (research), money (price of the item), and then money again when it fails on the job and I can't get my $1,000 job done on time, tarnishing my reputation and frustrating my clients and divers. And just as soon as supply-and-demand and lack of profits (they usually blame "the internet") makes the dive shop close (and I finally get some silence from the "this is better!" crowd), up pops a new dive shop with a new dive shop owner that got certified last week and fell in love with diving and decided to open up a shop... And I get to explain it all over again to him. :)

If I see one more new-fangled "quick release" heel strap for a set of fins come across my desk, I'm gonna shoot someone with my powerhead. The very nature of them - plastic, rubber, clips, and "undo quickly" mindset is completely flawed. I have a set of metal spring-heels on my Jets that haven't failed once in about five year's of heavy abuse... Why does everyone keep trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist with some piece-of-crap plastic thingie? Ugh. :-)

Okay - your Gekko... Nice computer. I wear a Suunto D6 on my wrist everywhere I go, whether I'm diving or not. I like the durability of the glass face over plastic, and find it especially useful to download profiles so that I can see everything on my computer. In fact, the D6 actually shows a graph of the dive without having to download it in the first place. I have found this to be immesely useful information, helping me to "tune" my ascent rates and overall profile.

I also find the backlighting fantastic, the numbers very legible underwater, and that it provides a ton of useful information while diving - including water temp (helps me to make decisions about exposure protection for the next day's dives), current depth, and yes, I even use the built-in compass. I have finally bagged my Suunto SK-7 compass, although I think I'll end up permenantly mounting it on one of my scooters.

I like computers - I was a systems admin before I was a professional diver. Computers and I get along very well, and I completely love my D6. However...

(You knew there'd be a "however," right?)

You shouldn't be using one to figure your NDL. That means, flip it into guage mode (you can't do that on your Gekko, although I hear that there's a software mod you can do) so that it displays time and depth, and that's it. There's three reasons why you - Tim - should not be using one to judge when it's time to ascend:

1. You are going to be getting into cave diving - this, depending on how far you get into it, will require multiple gas mixes, rebreathers, and other fancy equipment that a computer will not be able to take into account... So it'll tell you you're bent when you aren't, because there's factors that the computer isn't able to compensate for. Thus, the piece of equipment that you've spent so much money on will quickly become worthless - in fact, dangerous, if you begin to believe it underwater - during your extended dives. I know you're not doing that now, but don't even get used to it.

2. Computers - even those that are air integrated - can not account for sudden changes in situations. For example, if you are diving an air integrated computer at 100' and it tells you that you've got 8 minutes of NDL and 12 minutes of gas left, then you'll stay for another 5 minutes, right? What happens when your buddy is suddenly out of air at the four minute mark? Guess what... You don't have enough gas for both of you to return to the surface. What happens when one of those cool regs that you love so much suddenly begin to freeflow? Guess what... Your computer was right, but not any more... Suddenly, things have changed... And you're not prepared to handle them because you weren't thinking for yourself - you were letting the computer think for you.

3. You need to REALLY familiarize yourself with the "feel" of your NDLs that are being taught to you at the moment, and you need to learn how a dive "feels" so that the whole thing can become intuitive to you. Having a computer do it all for you will prevent this growth. It's especially important if you're going to advance in your diving - not so much so if you're going to end up just another once-a-year vacation diver in the Florida Keys.

Here's another thing to think about: What happens when you go diving with your buddy, and on your ascent from an 80' dive, his computer says that he's got to do a "safety stop" at 50', but yours says that if you stay there, you're over your NDL? If he's got 800 psi and you've got 1100, what do you do?

What do you do if you've only got 350 psi? Should your answer be different since you're so low on gas?

Whose computer do you believe? What do you do about your gas situation? At what point do you call the Coast Guard?

Okay, that last one isn't a serious question. But I do want you to get into thinking about this stuff, and beleive me, you'll see it when you're actually doing your diving. I applaud the fact that you want to increase your safety margin by getting a dive computer, but that's not what increases your safety margin... What increases your safety margin is to be more conservative than you would be otherwise, which is independent of whether you're wearing a computer. In fact, I'd be so bold as to tell you that if you see that you've still got 3 minutes of NDL left on your computer, you're more inclined to believe it and stay - which is to say that a computer is likely more apt to make you decide to take it to the ragged edge.

Now, consider this scenario instead: You save the few hundred bucks (times two, since she'll have to have one too) and instead get yourself a BP/wing and learn the tables by heart. You'd be really surprised how easy it is. Here, I'll start it for you:

1st dive of the day, use the Rule of 120 - this is an old Navy Diver addage: Depth + time = 120. For example, at 80 feet, you've got 40 minutes. At 100 feet, you've got 20 minutes. At 60 feet, you've got 60 minutes. Get it? Now go compare that to your tables or wheel - you'll see that the numbers are off just a touch, but by surprisingly little. That's because PADI added in a "safety margin" of their own. They were simply being conservative. The problem is that if you add in your own conservatism (a good idea, right?) now you're so super-conservative that you're worried about nothing - or cutting your dive short, which in my case means money, too. :) If you graph the two out (time on X axis and depth on Y axis), you'll also find out that the "Rule of 120" is a straight line, whereas the PADI tables are actually curved a little - making PADI's tables more conservative in the middle, but more liberal at the ends. I'm not telling you that you shouldn't practice the PADI tables and instead use the Rule of 120... I'm telling you that there's a close correlation, and if you see how the two of them look similar, you'll be much more familiar with what you can and can't do when it comes to your NDLs (which aren't a limit anyway - you'll learn that later and wonder why you even considered a dive computer that blinked a limit at you when there's not really a limit there).

For example, now that you're thinking about the Rule of 120, when you hear someone tell you that they dove to 110 feet and stayed there for 30 minutes, you'll know that they're pulling your leg unless they were doing staged deco on their asent. When someone tells you that they dove to 60 minutes and were past their NDL in 22 minutes, you'll know that something's really wrong with the story. And when you're at 90 feet and your computer floods, you'll know that you've got about 30 minutes to get out of there before things really get out of hand.

Oh yeah - don't forget that the Rule of 120 only works for the FIRST dive of your day. For subsequent dives, give yourself a one-hour surface interval between dives, and dive a Rule of 110 instead. See how that compares to your tables or wheel... Then ask yourself why they made this so darned hard in class... Or why you need to drop hundreds of valuable dollars (which could be spent on gear that you actually need) on a computer... Or why, even after owning a computer, you were thinking about buying ANOTHER one with air integration. :)

No, man... What you need is a bottom timer and a pressure guage and a lot of thinking for right now. Later, if you're willing to have the discipline to pop it into guage mode, consider something nicer... But for now, master the basics.

BTW, I can't believe that you bought a computer before you bought a wetsuit. :eek1: Even worse, I can't believe that the LDS encouraged that... What, are you going to wear the computer in the shower or something? What good does it do you if you can't get in the water?

Okay, enough for one day. :) No wonder they gave you a free air fill or two... You bought a computer. :)
 
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Damn Lew, you're on a roll today!!! :lol:

1) The rule of 120 makes perfect sense, though you're also certainly aware that this would be the first time I've heard of it.

2) The computer came from LP, and I traded the originally purchased Tusa analogs in for only $90 more since the Gekko was on sale at the time. Remember, I have to have something to track my air when I'm diving aquariums w/ my 1mm skin. My rationale behind an AI down the road is to use in addition to a set of analogs as a backup. Keep in mind that as a computer guy myself, I know to never stake my life on relying on them... Remember; if they always worked, we wouldn't! ;)

3) I actually saw a lot of BC incidents over the weekend with most being locking weight pocket problems due to sand clogging the releases or the weights not being properly arranged thus making the pockets to thick to be inserted. One guy with a newer $650 i3 that has the "elevator lever" discovered his attachment plate had a crack in it and it couldn't hold air. My $125 delivered used but LNIB Cressi S111 BC performed perfectly because I didn't have any of the issues that several of the others' had with their over priced BC's.... And my "fancy" Cressi Ellipse regs that the LDS despised until they actually had a chance to try them, worked flawlessly without ant sticking purge valves or leaking 1st stages. Also, by owning my own equipment, I know for fact that it was always kept high and tight, rather than being dragged along to rake over the rocks and ledges and dredge up sand... I saw it all! :eek:

4) Do you think I could get a BP/W in Teal with Black accents..?


To be honest, I've learned far far more from YOU than I ever did during any of my OW classes or training, and I even made a comment to the 2 DM's and Instructor while we were driving to Florida Thursday evening that I am probably the worst kind of BASIC student for them to have, because I have gone forth and sought my own level of edumakation that far surpasses what they are allowed to teach. While the DM's (husband & wife that began diving in August on the fast track plan) agreed that I needed to most likely turn the computer off, the Instructor essentially said "welcome to the world of diving, where knowledge is what keeps you alive." He did however condemn online gear reviews!!! :D

-Tim
 
Fort Myers

Fort Myers

I have dove Fort Myers many times and enjoyed it - did a lot of night diving. It's nice, the dive boats go out a lot further to get out of the silt caused by the river and to get to a better depth.

However, I like this east coast lots better.
 
I agree with damn near everything SeaJay said. I have slightly differing opinions on fins and computers.

Fins I started with Atomic Splits, still have em, dont use em... well let me take that back, I used them for my swim test when I became a DM. MOST divers (not seajay or myself) flutter kick. If that is the kick you're going to use, split fins do work quite well. They're like driving a car in overdrive, they are very fast, but it takes you awhile to get up to speed. Once you're up to speed, they are easy on you calf muscles. However you sit there and kick and kick and you're not moving much at the beginning. Jets, Turtles, or Slipstreams (my fav) give you instant torque, they are stiff so you can do intricate kicks like helicopter turns and swimming backwards that is SOOOO hard in splits.

computers my first computer was given to me, it was a high dollar computer with AI. AI didn't work, it would have cost so much money to make it work it wasnt worth it. (the computer was brand new just sitting around for a few years) I bought a Dive Rite Duo (ooh does 2 gasses so I can switch to deco gas...) I do like the large face and numbers, the second gas... what a waste. I then learned how to know how much gas I have, and look at my spg as a backup and Im usually within a hundred psi or so. I started diving with a bottom timer but kept my computer on my wrist in computer mode as a sanity check. A few months ago I did a tec dive, all was cool, then did a fun dive to 60' on scooters, that killed my computer. I sent it back and they gave me a brand new one. It still sitting on my desk. Im happy as a clam with just my bottom timer now. But as a new diver, I would suggest keeping a backup computer as a sanity check. Ive been on dives where I just get so overwhelmed I didn't know which way was up. I don't think I should have relied on my judgment to have remembered my dive tables...

I have a scout back up, but just picked up a Salvo Rat LED backup.... nice! The led is much better than the halogen bulb, my Halcyon is the older style and is knurled, not the grenade style grip, I like the flutes on the Salvo better, plus its a double o-ring seal on the head...

If you ever get out to So Cal, PM me, Ive got an extra backplate you can try and an al40 you can sling.

SeaJay, dive shops out there still cant give ya a good fill the 3500? I thought that was a thing of the pass... Out here on the Left coast, we all dive HP steels. Then again we all dive 7mil or drysuits...
 
David,

I appreciate the offer, and would love to take you up on it someday!!! :)

I don't know if SeaJay recalls our ûber long phone conversation one evening where I let him know about my medical condition and frequent rapid-fire seizures, but I have em, and quite frequently too. The seizures are Absant Seizures which is basically just a blip of lost time that at absolute worst case lasts a few seconds. For me they are generally always less than a second and more like a fraction of a second, but they do tend to leave you in a "Wow, *** just happened?" state for a few seconds followed by heavy breathing while the body recovers. This is why I have planned and figured for the need for the extra air (ie: 19cf Pony). I also realize that if I ever had to dip into my "emergency " supply, the day is absolutely over, not just the dive -- I may be dumb, but I'm not stupid!

From the first moment I dip my toe into the water, I'm going to be breaking all of the rules as set forth by other guys that don't always know about the things that they are making up the rules for (seizure disorder). Everyone is different, and because of spending the past few months blowing bubbles in a giant aquarium, my SAC rate was far less (800 vs my 1400[/i]) than some of the other students doing their OW check dives this past weekend at Vortex. I also strayed off into the mouth of a cave while following an Eel, rather than staying put on my knees at 50' next to the buoy line like the rest of the GOOD students. ;)

*Most* of the time I have a pretty good breathing rate, but sometimes I can suck a tank dry in no time!

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticken' to it! :D

-Tim

PS: I would never conceive of diving with anyone and not first fully briefing them on my medical condition. I also wouldn't dream of dipping my toes in the water if the days prior were bad ones, because I have a really hot wife that I love and value far more than anything else in life.
 
yes, Yes and YES!

My physician dives and he had absolutely no problem clearing me, though it did take some edumakating on my part to assure the LDS that I would be okay and that it would never create any type of a legal situation for them...

About the worst thing that would happen to me is I begin sucking air at an insane rate for a couple of minutes or so but nowhere near the point of hyperventilation. I've had this happen quite a bit while cleaning the 1000g aquarium, and I just concentrate on taking slow deep breaths like you would do if you're trying to slow your heart rate or reduce the type of anxiety that you get when your wife opens the new credit card statement and says, "We need to talk!" :eek2:

-Tim
 
Sorry for slacking, guys... I had to go diving. :D

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14731049#post14731049 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tgreene

1) The rule of 120 makes perfect sense, though you're also certainly aware that this would be the first time I've heard of it.

Yeah, I'm not surprised. The "Rule of 120" was first shown to me by a medical student who was riding in a chamber with me during a US Navy Flying After Diving study at Diver's Alert Network, Duke University Hyperbaric Facility. When I came out of the chamber (and of course, after a myriad of tests for the study), I sat down with the unit's lead hyperbaric technician and got the chance to ask him all sorts of questions. Literally, this was the guy writing the tables, which he would publish... Then each organization would add their level of conservatism to them (including the Navy, by the way - so no, USN dive tables are not pure) and publish them as they saw fit.

The second time I was introduced to the Rule of 120 was with Mike Kane, GUE instructor, during one of my GUE classes. Next, I heard it on the internet several times, although usually people aren't too willing to talk about it, as they don't want to be responsible for it's accidental misuse, or sometimes aggressive profile, especially when it's used by the out-of-shape cardiac patient on three kinds of cholesterol meds, during his once-a-year dive.

The Rule of 120/110 isn't perfect, either... It shouldn't be used by itself as the "end all" of dive tables, but it's a good "ballpark" figure that will give you an idea of where you should be with your tables. Add the knowlege of where it's conservative and where it's aggressive, and you'll be able to just "know" your limits right off the bat. Add 100 dives to it, and you'll be pretty doggone well-versed in what your NDLs are.

...Which aren't a hard-and-fast rule anyway... And which aren't really limits anyway. :)

When I asked DAN's lead hyperbaric tech what a limit was on a specific dive, his answer was... "It depends." The bottom line, he said, was that there are so many factors in so many different dives that it's really impossible to tell what someone's limits are when diving... Then there's the lack of definition of the problem - what are you limiting? Type 1 DCS? Type 2? PRE DCS? I mean, at what point is it okay? Is it okay to be tired at the end of the day's diving? Is it okay to have a headache just a little if it gives you twice the bottom time? At what point is red, red?

...So it's not even like the numbers that PADI has given you in your tables are as clear-cut as, "99.9% of people will not go to the hospital if they follow these numbers." It's waaaaay foggier than that, and the answer of, "it depends" is probably as accurate as you're going to get.

Frankly, the "Rule of 120/110" is probably statistically no safer or less safe than any complex series of calculations on your wrist or console, or those that are done by hand on paper prior to or after your dive.

Did you know that bone ongasses and offgasses at a different rate than blood? Fat differs from muscle in this same way, and brain tissue and the nervous system are yet again different from all of those. Every one of these different tissues are RADICALLY different from each other, so the next time someone tells you that they "were close to their NDL," ask them, "for which tissue?" :) That'll really mess up your diving-since-August-and-are-now-divemasters' brains. :) Then tell them you think they're bent - but just their brains. LOL

You want a real answer for all of this? Here it is: With the Rule of 120/110 in mind, use the snot out of your PADI tables until you have a pretty good understanding of where these limits are, then don't go anywhere near them. :) Take your AOW certification (which is really more like "Open Water, Part II") and then take your NITROX class. I suggest SSI's NITROX class, or even better yet, IANTD, if you can find it. Get into the understanding of partial pressures of gasses and suddenly you'll realize that NDL's aren't your biggest concern underwater. Also, when you start to think about how these different gasses work on the body in terms of partial pressures, you'll begin to see decompression diving in a little bit of a new light... And it'll all start to make a little sense for you.


2) The computer came from LP, and I traded the originally purchased Tusa analogs in for only $90 more since the Gekko was on sale at the time. Remember, I have to have something to track my air when I'm diving aquariums w/ my 1mm skin. My rationale behind an AI down the road is to use in addition to a set of analogs as a backup. Keep in mind that as a computer guy myself, I know to never stake my life on relying on them... Remember; if they always worked, we wouldn't!

Yeah, yeah... The bottom line is that most people simply use the computer, and most people just "go up" when it says to go up. Most people do one dive a year for about five years, then ten years later say, "I haven't dived in a really long time - I used to love that." Most people do a 35' drift dive in a bathing suit and rented gear, a clear-skirted mask and a pink snorkel. Most people never really "get it." That's totally cool if that makes them happy - but from what I'm hearing from you, you want to progress and do things that the average person won't... Including seeing the insides of caves. If that's the case, then flip your Gekko into gauge mode (it'll require a firmware modification that's published on ScubaBoard) and work the tables out by hand until you have a deeper understanding of what your published limits are.

...And the next time you're at the doctor's office, ask him if he can test you for a PFO. He'll explain to you what that is. Make sure you're good in that department before going past PADI's limits of teaching.

...And while he's doing that, ask yourself, "If I know that my air integrated system is questionable, and I've justified it by adding a reliable analog gauge, then why bother with anything but a reliable analog gauge in the first place?" I think you'll find that the AI system is pretty pointless, especially once you've done it so many times that you pretty much know how much gas you've got before looking at your gauge anyway.

If your desire for a wireless, AI system is so that you can have a readout on your wrist with the tank topside (like with the modified hookah rig that you told me about when you're working on the aquariums) think again... The wireless system will not work through the surface of the water... It'll work if both the transmitter and reciever are above or below the surface simultaneously, but not if one's under, and one's out of the water. And no, they don't work through glass either. In fact, they don't really work past 4 or 5 feet even when they ARE both underwater. Heck... To be honest with you, they often don't work very well under those conditions either. LOL Sorry if that bursts your bubble. Don't shoot the messenger.


3) I actually saw a lot of BC incidents over the weekend...

(snip)

I saw it all!

Yep. I see stuff just like that any time I go to a public dive spot. It's amazing, isn't it? It's even more stunning when you get into a BP/wing that you've got set up perfectly and you just have to slip on and go... No more "Hey, I've got to get used to this and figure this out" stuff. :)


4) Do you think I could get a BP/W in Teal with Black accents..?

Yep.

There's a couple of ways you could go about doing it... There's only three or four wings on the market that are something other than black, but there's one manufacturer making backplates anodized in whatever color you want. If I remember correctly, he can even anodize a photo onto the plate, if you like. Webbing is available in any color, too... And the really fancy people have actually engraved their plates, the coolest of which I've seen had a tribal pattern on it.

All of that said, when pink webbing or wings fade, they fade to flesh. Blue fades to periwinkle, red turns pink. I don't know what color teal turns into, but black is still... Black. It might be a little lighter or have a sort of brown undertone, but it's still black, which beats the heck out of flesh or periwinkle, which is like gay and gayer. :)

Anodizing is better than painting, but if there's a coating on something metal, it's eventually going to scratch off... There's no getting around it. Engraving works best, IMHO, but why? Only you're going to notice it.

Yeah, man... You can get it in any color you choose - but I think that after a few hundred dives, you'll want black just like the rest of us do. It's one of the reasons we jokingly refer to it as "The Dark Side."

To be honest, I've learned far far more from YOU than I ever did during any of my OW classes or training

I'm flattered. :) There was a time - in fact, there still is - when I, too, was online, soaking up as much information as I possibly could, which vastly exceeded anything that my instructors were telling me. They, too, told me to turn off the computer. I did, but not before getting my "guru's" phone number and going down and getting some one-on-one time with him (he was an instructor). Suddenly, it wasn't a matter of "what the internet says" vs. "what my instructor says," it was more like instructor vs. instructor... And it was pretty obvious who knew their stuff. :)

Yeah, you want to find out what the real deal is? Call Doug Maudry in High Springs, FL like I recommended above. Go to http://www.GUE.com and see if there's another GUE instructor closer to you. Visit Duke University and participate in whatever study they'll let you participate in... Just get out and see the world of diving... Not just the world of dive marketing. :)

...And take your instructor with you. He seems like a pretty sharp guy.
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14731866#post14731866 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by David P
Fins I started with Atomic Splits, still have em, dont use em... well let me take that back, I used them for my swim test when I became a DM.

(snip)

Jets, Turtles, or Slipstreams (my fav) give you instant torque, they are stiff so you can do intricate kicks like helicopter turns and swimming backwards that is SOOOO hard in splits.

Yeah, that pretty much mirrors my experience with them, too... Although I wouldn't have described the feeling of split fins as a "high gear," I would have described it as a "low gear." For the same given speed, I had to flutter a lot quicker - smaller, quicker strokes... But then, like you said, there seemed to be missing all of the stiffness that allowed for the variety of kicks that diving really requires.

I heard once that diving splits was like diving in a pair of sneakers... Sure, they're easy to push through the water as compared to a stiff fin like a Jet, but not very effective.

I loved my Mares Quattros before getting Jets, which is a very similar concept to the splits, but a little before the splits' time. Since going to Jets (I did to get my trim right and to get into some of the more advanced kicks - like the backwards kick), I have tried the Quattros several times... And I don't know what the heck I was thinking. :) Kinda like going to your high school reunion, looking at your high school sweetheart and wondering, "What the heck was I thinking?" :D


I have a scout back up, but just picked up a Salvo Rat LED backup.... nice! The led is much better than the halogen bulb, my Halcyon is the older style and is knurled, not the grenade style grip, I like the flutes on the Salvo better, plus its a double o-ring seal on the head...

Yeah, my Hesers have double o-rings, too... Which I find great in really crappy environments... The first ring catches all of the mud and muck, while the second ring actually does the sealing. :) I'm not familiar with the Salvo backup lights, but I know that they make great primaries and I bet that their LED backup is super nice.


SeaJay, dive shops out there still cant give ya a good fill the 3500? I thought that was a thing of the pass... Out here on the Left coast, we all dive HP steels. Then again we all dive 7mil or drysuits...

Well, I don't actually have a dive shop anywhere near me - the closest is either Savannah or Charleston, which is an hour and a half away... And frankly, they're pretty strokey. :) I get tired of defending myself every time I walk in there and simply ask for a new set of Jets or a new O'Neill wetsuit or a set of Scubapro cam bands or whatever it is that I need. I'd much rather simply find it online and order it without some 16 year-old super-aqua-boy (who's Dad invented scuba diving and was Cousteau's college roommate) trying to argue with me about it. The next punk that tells me that he's a Navy SEAL or is going to be a Navy SEAL or was once a Navy SEAL or was raised by a pack of wild Navy SEALS is going to get smacked upside the head so that I can point out that a real Navy SEAL would have seen that coming. :D

Anyway, no, they don't generally fill past 3300 psi... And I can't say that I blame them. Filling to 4200 is pretty tough on the compressor, and if I set the valve on my compressor tight enough to fill that high, then I risk the possibility of blowing the disk or plug in all of my other tanks when I fill them... Or worse, not blowing the plug or disk at all, and winding up with a blown up garage. :)

You said something about filling to 3500 psi... Your HP tank... Is it not the same ones that we have here? These are rated at 4200 psi... Meaning that anything less than that, and it's not really a 100 cuft tank... Or an 80 cuft tank... Or whatever they're telling you it is.

See, that's the real reason why everyone here loves those LP steels so much... 'Cause they're a steel 95, but that's at 2400 psi. When you fill them to 3300, there's waaaay more gas in there than that - more like 120 cuft. Doubled, and that's 240 cuft of back gas... And the steel 95's are the small tanks. :)

Double 104's will hold around 260 cuft of gas... Add a pair of slung 80's, and you're sportin' something like 420 cu ft of gas... Which is a REALLY long time. :) Anything longer and you're going to just go ahead and spring for the rebreather... :)
 
SeaJay, #4 was RHETORICAL and laughable at best... Sorry you wasted time with it! :D

Back to the wetsuits... DON'T HATE ME, but I just snagged a Henderson 5mm from my LDS since they offered me a great price and aside from the mask/snorkel/fins/booties and a AL80 I haven't bought anything from them. Nothing, and they still won't charge me for tank fills which are every week and sometimes multiples. They also invited me on a personal trip (ie: no-instructional) for free the first weekend in May, so I weighed the odds in their favor for this one.

Today is the launch of their new "Diving Club" and this weekend is their 36th Anniversary, so I decided to go ahead and toss them the bone.

Anyways, I just spent the past couple of hours in 4.5' of salt water and am now ready for Sushi and Saki, which is a very long standing Thursday tradition where a bunch of us self employed all take Thursdays off and drink the bar dry! ;)

-Tim
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14746246#post14746246 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tgreene
SeaJay, #4 was RHETORICAL and laughable at best... Sorry you wasted time with it! :D

Nah - probably like you, I type at some ungodly rate... It's from all of those years as a programmer. The only issue that I have, obviously, is making my posts too long. :D

Anyway, no, I didn't spend any time typing that... But it's a good point that you bring up, nonetheless... People tend to see BP/wings as pretty plain-Jane as compared to off-the-shelf BCs, and no, that's not always the case.

Conversely, the typical BP/wing owner is not a newbie when it comes to diving, and so they've already learned that black is good... And it all matches. :D Thus... They all tend to be black.


Back to the wetsuits... DON'T HATE ME, but I just snagged a Henderson 5mm from my LDS since they offered me a great price and aside from the mask/snorkel/fins/booties and a AL80 I haven't bought anything from them. Nothing, and they still won't charge me for tank fills which are every week and sometimes multiples. They also invited me on a personal trip (ie: no-instructional) for free the first weekend in May, so I weighed the odds in their favor for this one.

Well, if that's true, then definitely hold on to that shop. There ARE a few that are good.


Today is the launch of their new "Diving Club" and this weekend is their 36th Anniversary, so I decided to go ahead and toss them the bone.

Well, I'm all about supporting your LDS - just be aware of what you can get things for online (include shipping), and set in your mind what you expect to pay as a premium for the LDS. And the moment they start propagating misinformation, call them on it so that it doesn't begin to run rampant through your local dive community.


Anyways, I just spent the past couple of hours in 4.5' of salt water and am now ready for Sushi and Saki, which is a very long standing Thursday tradition where a bunch of us self employed all take Thursdays off and drink the bar dry! ;)

-Tim

Hahahaaa... Too cool. Wish I was there with you, my friend... I'm lightninged-in today. :(

And doggone-it, I've got a ton of work that needs to get done.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14746423#post14746423 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SeaJayInSC
Well, if that's true, then definitely hold on to that shop. There ARE a few that are good.

Well, I'm all about supporting your LDS - just be aware of what you can get things for online (include shipping), and set in your mind what you expect to pay as a premium for the LDS. And the moment they start propagating misinformation, call them on it so that it doesn't begin to run rampant through your local dive community.
Yea, my LDS is a father~son operation that was started by the father and his brother... They really are good guys and the more I'm around them the more I realize how straight up they are.

On our way back from Florida this past weekend I made the comment about how it would be awesome to find a hotel w/ a nice hottub, so it was game on to find one... The instructor/owners son had my contact my wife to locate a really nice hotel in the area that were were that had every luxury type amenity that we could think of, then he had his wife call and book each of us a suite... We were at the hotel no more than 10 minutes and every one of us was clogging the hottub! :D

Keep in mind that I paid all of $235 for this trip + my equal share of gas (in kicked in $60), and it included 3 nights in very nice hotels with the 3rd night in a suite, entry into Vortex Spring for 2 days, and tank fills... On the 2nd night I had a roomie.

To be brutally honest, the shop absolutely had to have lost money on this trip, because I know what everything cost. When I tried top tip the husband/wife DM's they actually took it as an insult and refused to accept the tip, then when I tried to tip the instructor it was pretty much the same thing. They are not used to accepting tips from students, and honestly didn't know that it was proper to accept them. I then offered to pick up all o their drinks one night and it was the same thing.

You can look back to my earliest posts in this forum and see me complain about a few things, but now that I know the guys and what they are all about, they are solid gold!

Now that I am no longer a student and am just another customer I would have absolutely expected to be charged for a tank fill this morning, but when I tossed a $10 on the counter I was once again told, "Nah, don't worry about it."... Keeping in mind that they know what I do for a living, and that it requires tank fills from them, and then they won't take my money is what made my decision to buy a wetsuit from them right then and there this morning.

I'm very much the same way in business in that I too take care of my customers and pseudo-customers in the same manner... I had somebody come over to buy corals the other night and he literally picked out $350-400 in frags, but but he's a great kid that;'s in college and while he won't take an ounce of advice from me, he's a "faithful" client, so I charged him all of $180 and then added in a few more freebies. If he was just someone that walked in off of the streets, he would have paid full tilt.

When I made a comment yesterday to the instructor/owners' son about the thought of going with a BP/W & Doubles, he started laughing and said "I'll still come up with more air!" During our check dives, he nearly ran out of air due to a serious 1-on-1 time issue w/ a particular student and then spent the rest of the day just swimming around pulling Octos from everyone within reach and sucking on our tanks rather than killing his own, and stayed in the water all damn day. ;)

On the way home we were talking about equipment manufacturers, and his favorite is atomic though they are not a dealer distributor for them. His 2nd favorite was also a company that they don't carry...

Yea, they really are good guys! :smokin:

-Tim
 
Sounds like my experience with many shops. You know, once you get to know the guys and - especially if you take them diving on your boat - they end up being good friends.

And yeah, I've taken a bunch of dive shop trips, too... Same deal. Here's how it works: The hotels and the springs typically let the instructors and DMs dive free or at a dramatically reduced rate if they bring their clients down. If the owners, instructors and DMs love to dive and want to do it all the time, that's a huge benefit of owning the shop.

...But it's not exactly lucrative.

For what it's worth, what would you and a buddy have spent, going down there and doing the same trip on your own? I know you said that you compared it, but what are the numbers?

When I did that, I found that I could have done it for the same price or cheaper - and frankly, not had to worry about someone else... Or had to do things the way the "group" wanted to, or what was best for the "group." I could stop when I wanted to, go when I wanted to, stayed for an extra dive, or whatever else I wanted to do.

...Not that good friends' company isn't a good thing, of course... But I could take my girl, head down there and meet you and your wife for the same cost or less... And called my own shots with regard to time, number of dives, places to eat, and that kind of stuff.

Last time Kym and I went to Ginnie Springs, we went down Friday night and did probably six dives on Saturday (including two night dives) and two on Sunday. We camped, too, which is a lot of fun because they have full shower facilities, a dive shop, and a grill there. Including fuel and tank fills down there, I think we spent something in the realm of about $400 for Kym and myself, plus four kids. Just her and I would have probably been $325... And we ate at Floyd's (THE diver hangout) Saturday night. :)

$320 or so for a weekend trip? Sounds about right... You should meet us at Crystal River and check out the manatee. If you've never seen one in person, you're in for a treat - there's nothing like them in the world.

The Port Hotel, right on King Spring, is $60/night if I remember correctly... And also has a great little restaurant. Heck, just being on the property is worth that. :)

We like to rent a pontoon boat, too... That's not terribly affordable... I think it's like $130 for four hours - not bad, but not great either, when you figure out what percentage of the cost of the trip that is.

Anyway, glad to see that they're turning into buddies. :) It kinda surprises me that they've been in business 30-something years and are just now getting around to creating a dive club - and aren't familiar with BP/wings.
 
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I couldn't have done the trip on my own for anywhere near that...

Figure 3 nights at $80/ea (240) + entry to the springs at $19/day (38) + $5 tank fills (10) + fuel there and back at estimated $120... that's $408 compared to the $295 that I actually paid.

We were in $125/night rooms though, as compared to the $80 that I figured. As much as I love camping (I lived in a tent for 2 years), we had 7" of rain in just over 24 hours, so I probably would have drowned in my sleep and that would have sucked! :D

-Tim
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14748095#post14748095 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SeaJayInSC
Hmmmm... How'd they do it so cheap, then? Group discounts?
It had to be a loss leader trip, because there is simply no other explanation in regards to the fees. I offered to pay for my room the last night while on the way home, and was told the shop would cover it as long as my wife didn't find us a bunch of $300 per night rooms.

Again, after doing all of the math, that's yet another reason why I broke down and tossed them the bone on the wetsuit. ;)

The DM's that were on the trip are soon being transferred to Charleston, SC w/ the Navy, so I would love to be able to put them in touch with you.

-Tim
 
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