Goodbye to LED lighting

kruxy - Good catch -- make, use, and/or sell, to be completely accurate. Your thinking is not out of line in the least. It could be as you state, a patent on an original idea; it could be the way others have argued, that the patent is invalid and was not new, or it could be somewhere in between. I'm not commenting on the facts now as I know very little -- I'm as curious as you are to see how it all plays out.
 
This is the response I got from PLANET LLC / ORBITEC on 05/02/2009

"Our products will be released under a major aquarium industry partner’s brand later this year, and we are collecting all emails from concerned Solaris owners to offer them some assistance in the future. You can be assured that we are working and testing our systems to ensure the highest quality and reliability"

So I could see this happening:
I have word from Orbitec that when they roll their own aquarium units out in the fall that they will be offering a PFO Trade-In program.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14476476#post14476476 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mcliffy2
I'm not sure where you got this information, but it is 100% incorrect. It is infringement if you make, use, and sell a patented invention in the US. You are infringing if you make a DIY version of a patented invention, or even use one that someone else made.

And if you sell a kit that can be put together to make a patented product, you can be liable for inducing or contributing to the infringement of another.

I have been corrected. I was always under the understanding that it just covered selling and in some cases using (such as in the usage of a patented process). What about freely distributing step-by-step plans to make a patented invention, such as what is done on these forums?

I'd have to say that it's a little ridiculous that one could be sued for simply building a patented invention for their own use. I mean, that would suggest that each time I dream up some sort of invention that I would like to build for my own uses I would have to contact a patent attorney to conduct a patent search lest run the risk of being sued if the patent holder found out. I realize that there is difference between what a law says how things actually play out in court. Have there been any cases where a private citizen was actually successfully sued for building an invention that they did not intend to sell?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14476476#post14476476 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mcliffy2
I'm not sure where you got this information, but it is 100% incorrect. It is infringement if you make, use, and sell a patented invention in the US. You are infringing if you make a DIY version of a patented invention, or even use one that someone else made.

And if you sell a kit that can be put together to make a patented product, you can be liable for inducing or contributing to the infringement of another.

Just out of curiosity, that's something a patent holder could go after you for, but it's pretty unlikely, right?

Let's say I build a DIY lighting unit that is exactly to the specs of this company's unit (which would likely catch fire, and burn my house to the ground :D). They could come after me for infringement, but it wouldn't make much sense to spend all that time & money going after me. At most, I could see them telling me to remove any info/ pictures from a how to thread, on the DIY forum for example, but they really wouldn't have much interest in really going after me, would they?

Not that I have any interest in doing something like this, just feeding my curiosity. Patent stuff interests me.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14482642#post14482642 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by phenom5
Just out of curiosity, that's something a patent holder could go after you for, but it's pretty unlikely, right?

Let's say I build a DIY lighting unit that is exactly to the specs of this company's unit (which would likely catch fire, and burn my house to the ground :D). They could come after me for infringement, but it wouldn't make much sense to spend all that time & money going after me. At most, I could see them telling me to remove any info/ pictures from a how to thread, on the DIY forum for example, but they really wouldn't have much interest in really going after me, would they?

Not that I have any interest in doing something like this, just feeding my curiosity. Patent stuff interests me.

I've written a third part to my series over at Glassbox-Design that addresses this exact scenario. Eric should be posting it there in the next couple days. I'll post in this thread once its up.
 
You'd have nothing to worry about, well except for that whole burning your house down part... A patent is to protect a companies intellectual property and the right to build their product and sell it without another company duplicating it and selling it as well, not to keep people at home from building their own unit.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14482879#post14482879 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DGee
You'd have nothing to worry about, well except for that whole burning your house down part... A patent is to protect a companies intellectual property and the right to build their product and sell it without another company duplicating it and selling it as well, not to keep people at home from building their own unit.

In practice, but that's not what MCliffy is saying. Makes sense, and it's a matter of how the laws are written vs how they're applied.

It'll be interesting to read the third part of MCliffy's blog.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14482879#post14482879 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DGee
You'd have nothing to worry about, well except for that whole burning your house down part... A patent is to protect a companies intellectual property and the right to build their product and sell it without another company duplicating it and selling it as well, not to keep people at home from building their own unit.

This is not incorrect. A patent doesn't give you a right to build anything, it gives you a right to exclude others from building. And you do infringe if you build a patented product at home...in fact you infringe even if you use a patented product at home. Whether or not you'll be sued is another question, but if you go 66 in a 65, it is still speeding, even if you don't get pulled over.

The second point will be addressed in part III of my series, which should be posted in the next couple days. The first point is addressed in part II of my series: http://glassbox-design.com/2009/patents-101-foreign-manufacturing-licensing-claims/

The first thing to understand is what a patent is. It is a common misconception that a patent gives you a right to make your invention, but this is not the case. A patent gives you the right to exclude. That is, you can prevent others from making it. In fact, even with a patent, you may not have the right to make your invention. For example, if you get a patent on a downdraft skimmer with bells and whistles, but someone else already has a patent on a downdraft skimmer with just bells, you can prevent others from making your skimmer, but you’ll need to get a license from the other patent-holder to actually make your skimmer with bells and whistles.
 
why this old thread always come up on top. so what if PFO out of the business. Always other LED company.
 
And DIY...
Orbitech won't bother Suing you if your an Individual following a guide building a light.
Heck someone could sell a completed DIY light and sell it as a "Plant Light"
 
"I have 3 of PFO's units. The Chinese junk ones that I can now now longer get service for.

I just threw over 6k down the toilet."

PFO buy low cost LED from china and sell it as High End in USA that is why. I' don't feel sorry for PFO.
 
Thats interesting, but you know the law... it your job =)

It's pretty cool that RC has such a collective group of individuals that can contribute so many different things inside and outside of the hobby.

Thanks again for writing the articles, I just got done with the first two installments and looking forward to the third.
 
So I guess all the Solaris owners could be sued...Yeah right! Just because it is possible does not mean that it would happen. Could you imagine something more disastrous for a company from a PR perspective? People are already ****ed off enough that Orbitec sunk PFO and the Solaris owners are left without any guarantee that their fixtures will be supported. From a business perspective, I can see no utility for a company suing private individuals for making or using a patented product.

What kind of money could they expect for that anyway? Doesn't the amount awarded in a patent lawsuit relate to the amount of money that the company made in selling the infringing product? What money could be made from suing someone who just made it for their own purposes? Certainly not enough to even come close to covering lawyer fees... Though I'm sure a lawyer wouldn't particularly care one way or the other as long as they're getting payed.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14485502#post14485502 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aninjaatemyshoe
So I guess all the Solaris owners could be sued...Yeah right! Just because it is possible does not mean that it would happen. Could you imagine something more disastrous for a company from a PR perspective? People are already ****ed off enough that Orbitec sunk PFO and the Solaris owners are left without any guarantee that their fixtures will be supported. From a business perspective, I can see no utility for a company suing private individuals for making or using a patented product.

What kind of money could they expect for that anyway? Doesn't the amount awarded in a patent lawsuit relate to the amount of money that the company made in selling the infringing product? What money could be made from suing someone who just made it for their own purposes? Certainly not enough to even come close to covering lawyer fees... Though I'm sure a lawyer wouldn't particularly care one way or the other as long as they're getting payed.

I am not disagreeing that from a business perspective it is not usually viable, BUT people do read comments like yours and through the telephone game, suddenly people are saying you CAN'T be sued, which is not true. I'm merely saying what the law is, not giving advice on how to apply it (that will cost you ;) ). And kidding aside, there is always an exception, think about those people who got sued for downloading one or two songs from Napster. There is an example where the big company went after individuals. (True this is another area of intellectual property, copyright, but there are commonalities between the two areas).
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14485425#post14485425 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DGee
Thats interesting, but you know the law... it your job =)

It's pretty cool that RC has such a collective group of individuals that can contribute so many different things inside and outside of the hobby.

Thanks again for writing the articles, I just got done with the first two installments and looking forward to the third.

No problem -- while I feel for the PFO folks (met them at MACNA and have only good things to say), it is interesting to see one of my three passions in the life (the others being snowboarding and scuba diving) intersect with my work, and to hopefully help others understand a little bit more about an oft-misunderstood aspect of our legal system.
 
What does the board look like. Are you intrested in getting it repaired instead of replaced. I have never seen one of these so I am not sure how repairable it would be. Do you have any pictures of both sides of the board.
 
Old Thread? A whole 23 days old. You have to be kidding me. Some including me are very interested in how this all is going to play out and what implications that it might mean to the hobby. Hopefully they wont go overboard and start threatining all those including me that have made or made info on these. Patent laws are a little rediculous when you can patent such a broad idea as using led's for reef lighting. Thats like if someone whould have patented using nylon brushes for teeth cleaning.
 
Nazrac - I obviously am biased, but am glad folks are taking interest in this. Aquarists are often also the innovators in this hobby, and so its good that the hobby is developing an awareness of the patent system. I just hope people will see the benefits, as well as the flaws, in the patent system.

To your point, I'm not going to comment one way or the other on the validity of the Orbitec patent, but I will say it is not as broad as you are characterizing it to be. Also, this is technical, but if it were truly that broad, it would not have been patent law that allowed it, but a misapplication of that patent law. And misapplications of patent law are correctable in a number of ways.

Part I of my GBD series covers this: http://glassbox-design.com/2009/patents-101-benefits-faults-recourse/

Q: So lets say a patent “slips through the cracks” and now I’m being sued. It covers my product because it is so broad, but I don’t think the patent ever should have been issued in the first place. Am I just out of luck?

A: No, there are a number of options to fight a patent that you think shouldn’t have been issued. One route is at the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office (USPTO), the agency that handles the issuing of patents. A third party can file what is called a re-examination to challenge the patent. Without providing too many boring specifics, you generally present the USPTO with evidence showing that at the time of the invention, the invention was not new, or that it was obvious to one skilled in the art. If the USPTO accepts your petition for re-examination, it is possible that the patent can be invalidated (essentially thrown out), or that the inventor may have to narrow the scope of the patent so it covers less. It is also possible that a lawsuit may be “stayed” (i.e., paused) during the re-examination. While more expensive, you can also file counterclaims in the lawsuit that the patent is invalid based on the same evidence.
 
Back
Top