Got Ich - read the sticky, have questions

[ExpensiveHobby]

So I've got myself in a situation. My own fault. I have been in the hobby for about 10 years but fighting ich is relatively new to me. I'm stressing over this really bad right now. I have read all I can read and I have a great understanding of the life cycle and the treatments. However, the stickys don't answer everything and I need to make a decision on my treatment today.

THIS IS A FISH ONLY TANK WITH LIVE ROCK AND INVERTS (thank god no corals)

HARDWARE:
130 gallon (4' x 3' x 16") - BARE BOTTOM
oversized ASM g4XX skimmer
dual reactors - carbon /gfo
chaeto in the sump
(2)xf150's for flow

LIVESTOCK:
Fish with symptoms- Big purple tang, small hippo tang, sm/med yellow tang, med saifin tang, med powder brown tang. (notice a trend?)

Fish without symptoms - six line, pair of clowns, banghai cardinal

also have about 40-50 blue leg hermits, 100+ lbs of nice live rock

TIMELINE:
All inhabitant 1 year plus in system with no ich, 8 days ago I introduced the Purple tang from one source and the brown tang from a different source. The purple tang is the fish who brought in the ich. Days 1-3 of new fish the purple had ich, began feeding heavily LRS fish frenzy, lots of algae sheets, mysis everything soaked in garlic power. All fish eating great. after 3 days the ich was gone off the purple tang. Day 7 ich is back stronger, now infecting every tang in the tank. That brings me to today.

MY THOUGHTS AND UNDERSTAND:
It appears the only way to rid ich from the fish and system is to run hypo, copper, fishless. I dont trust anything in bottle that says ich be gone or ich-x. I DONT NOT HAVE A HT UP AND RUNNING RIGHT NOW

Hypo - If I ran this in the display I'd have to pull out the inverts which wouldn't be a big deal. I have a ten gallon they could go in. However all my LiveRock would die off and I don't know how to maintain healthy bacteria to prevent a cycle by running hypo.

Copper - If I ran copper in my display all my rock would die off and I don't know how to maintain healthy bacteria to prevent a cycle. I also would have never be able to put coral or inverts in the tank as the copper leaches from silicone and rocks. I'd also have a lot of trouble selling the tank down the line once Copper enters the tank.

Do Nothing - Some members of my local reef club seem to think that as long as all the fish are eating well that the problem will go away on its own. I thought that might be true until the ich dropped off to reproduce and came back 10x more powerful. What will the next reproduction cycle bring?

CURRENT PLAN OF ACTION

So I'm currently thinking that the best course of action right now would be to set up a HT and put all the fish in there. Run hypo on the HT for a month while keeping the display fishless for 8 weeks. I think this would work. I actually have a local guy with a 90 gallon plus stand for $120. I think the 90 would be just big enough although i'm worried putting all these tangs in a 90 and running hypo will stress them out more. I've got so much money into these fish I don't want to lose any. I need to get a jump on this asap as Im going out of town at the end of the month and I need everything on cruise control before I go.

QUESTIONS

-What would you do in my situation?

-If I do buy the 90 gallon and fill it up with fresh made saltwater and a cheap HOB filter and a bunch of PVC then how do I prevent a cycle? Wont the fish just die from ammonia being that I just tossed a dozen fish in a smaller tank with no bacteria at all?

- If I were to run hypo right in the display how long would I need to run it before all the ich would be dead and I could bring it up? A month from the last visible sign of ich? How do you prevent a cycle once my liverock is basically nuked from hypo?

http://vid216.photobucket.com/album...trim.A9D398A9-C9A2-46A0-85C4-639CA82AF222.mp4

 

[Reef908]

I did Hypo for 3 months (which is a bit longer than the 72 or so recommended days). However you probably will lose your inverts if you do not remove them prior. I took about 2 weeks to bring down to level by doing water changes with pure RODI. Then took another 2 weeks or so to bring back up to standard salinity by doing water changes with standard salinity water. Once I got down to the hypo level, it was easy to maintain with the auto top off. I tested daily initially, but once I saw it remain steady, I got lazy and only checked once a week or so. Fish have been ich free since. I am sure how it got into my system, since I do a QT on all fish and there were no new additions at the time, was that I added some snails without QT since they came from a fishless system. Lesson learned. Good luck!

 

[BrandonFlorida]

I would say the size of your tank is not big enough for all those tangs and could be stressing them as well and helping the ich attack. four foot tank imo is too small for those fish.

You best bet is to get 40 gallon breeders and treat a few fish with TTM. I have never done it but that seems to be the way to go..

I have a big Purple tang in my QT right now but so far ive been pretty lucky. Still have 5 weeks to go thou.

QT, QT, QT!!

 

[ExpensiveHobby]

I did Hypo for 3 months (which is a bit longer than the 72 or so recommended days). However you probably will lose your inverts if you do not remove them prior. I took about 2 weeks to bring down to level by doing water changes with pure RODI. Then took another 2 weeks or so to bring back up to standard salinity by doing water changes with standard salinity water. Once I got down to the hypo level, it was easy to maintain with the auto top off. I tested daily initially, but once I saw it remain steady, I got lazy and only checked once a week or so. Fish have been ich free since. I am sure how it got into my system, since I do a QT on all fish and there were no new additions at the time, was that I added some snails without QT since they came from a fishless system. Lesson learned. Good luck!

everything Im reading says one month for hypo and the salinity change is over a two-three day span not two weeks.

 

[ExpensiveHobby]

you best bet is to get 40 gallon breeders and treat a few fish with ttm. I have never done it but that seems to be the way to go..

ttm?

 

[thegrun]

I would strongly recommend using the tank transfer method of treatment, it is MUCH less stressful to the fish than either hypo or copper. You could use a few Brute trash cans as transfer tanks. The display tank needs to sit fallow for a minimum of 72 days, any shorter of a duration leaves the tank with the risk of still having live ich in it and you risk a new infestation when you reintroduce the fish. I know 72 days is a long time to wait, but the last thing you want to do is have to go through the entire process again.

 

[ExpensiveHobby]

I would strongly recommend using the tank transfer method of treatment, it is MUCH less stressful to the fish than either hypo or copper. You could use a few Brute trash cans as transfer tanks. The display tank needs to sit fallow for a minimum of 72 days, any shorter of a duration leaves the tank with the risk of still having live ich in it and you risk a new infestation when you reintroduce the fish. I know 72 days is a long time to wait, but the last thing you want to do is have to go through the entire process again.

so the display gets rid of the ich, but the fish are still dealing with all the ich in their new home? I dont get it. Also wouldnt living in a trash can for 72 days be more stressful?

 

[Reef908]

Ugh. Sorry about that. I wrote quickly and didn't review well. Yes over 2 days to raise and lower and it was supposed to be 32 days, not 72 and 3 months. brain fart. I was combining the fallow period as mentioned already with Hypo. I am in a boring work meeting and trying to type when my boss is not asking me questions haha

 

[MondoBongo]

so the display gets rid of the ich, but the fish are still dealing with all the ich in their new home? I dont get it. Also wouldnt living in a trash can for 72 days be more stressful?

Tank Transfer Method (TTM) exploits the life cycle of the ich parasite. at some point during the transfers, the parasites are left behind.

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/LyraEDISS... 2&document_soid=FA164&document_version=49872

the Trophont stage is what you observe on the fish, the white spots, this is when they are actively feeding on the animals. at some point these trophonts fall off the fish in the form of protomonts, that sink down to the substrate and form the encysted or tomont stage.

it's this particular action that is key to TTM's success. since you're transferring them to new (clean) tanks at an interval of no more than 72 hours, there will come a point where the trophonts turn in to protomonts, fall off the fish and encyst, and are then left behind when the fish are moved to the next tank.

that's why the keys to TTM are minimizing the transfer of any water during the fish transfers (plastic colanders work well for this), making sure you're not cross contaminating, and doing enough transfers on a steady interval to have a high degree of statistical probability that the parasites have been left behind.

after you've completed the transfer protocol, i usually put new arrivals under a 5 week observation period to make sure that i executed the transfers correctly, and help ensure they're not carrying anything else. i typically also do two full rounds of prazi during the TTM process.

in between transfers i bleach the old tank, and equipment, then rinse well and let dry completely before reusing. i use large pvc pipe sections for hiding spots, since they're non-porous, easy to clean, and easy to obtain. i throw out air stones and airlines because you can't really clean them, and they're cheap.

help reduce stress by keeping water quality clean. i use an ammonia locker like Prime or AmQuel, i also siphon out any waste and uneaten food daily, and replace with some fresh water. i keep the lights low, and make sure my TTM tanks are in an out of the way place so the fish aren't constantly being disturbed.

with that many tangs, you might need to figure out multiple vessels, or a divided solution, depending on their size, and how they're getting along together. that many fish is a large bio-load for uncycled tanks. so even with frequent water changes and ammonia lockers, you might have trouble controlling the water chemistry.

couple this with at least a 72 day fallow period for the display to make sure no other ich parasites are present (they should have all died off by this point) and you're fish should be good to go.

 

[Bent]

Can u not just move the inverts and hypo the display? May not be the worlds most effective treatment but it would be a heck of a lot easier than TTMing every fish.

 

[ExpensiveHobby]

Tank Transfer Method (TTM) exploits the life cycle of the ich parasite. at some point during the transfers, the parasites are left behind.

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/LyraEDISS... 2&document_soid=FA164&document_version=49872

the Trophont stage is what you observe on the fish, the white spots, this is when they are actively feeding on the animals. at some point these trophonts fall off the fish in the form of protomonts, that sink down to the substrate and form the encysted or tomont stage.

it's this particular action that is key to TTM's success. since you're transferring them to new (clean) tanks at an interval of no more than 72 hours, there will come a point where the trophonts turn in to protomonts, fall off the fish and encyst, and are then left behind when the fish are moved to the next tank.

that's why the keys to TTM are minimizing the transfer of any water during the fish transfers (plastic colanders work well for this), making sure you're not cross contaminating, and doing enough transfers on a steady interval to have a high degree of statistical probability that the parasites have been left behind.

after you've completed the transfer protocol, i usually put new arrivals under a 5 week observation period to make sure that i executed the transfers correctly, and help ensure they're not carrying anything else. i typically also do two full rounds of prazi during the TTM process.

in between transfers i bleach the old tank, and equipment, then rinse well and let dry completely before reusing. i use large pvc pipe sections for hiding spots, since they're non-porous, easy to clean, and easy to obtain. i throw out air stones and airlines because you can't really clean them, and they're cheap.

help reduce stress by keeping water quality clean. i use an ammonia locker like Prime or AmQuel, i also siphon out any waste and uneaten food daily, and replace with some fresh water. i keep the lights low, and make sure my TTM tanks are in an out of the way place so the fish aren't constantly being disturbed.

with that many tangs, you might need to figure out multiple vessels, or a divided solution, depending on their size, and how they're getting along together. that many fish is a large bio-load for uncycled tanks. so even with frequent water changes and ammonia lockers, you might have trouble controlling the water chemistry.

couple this with at least a 72 day fallow period for the display to make sure no other ich parasites are present (they should have all died off by this point) and you're fish should be good to go.

hmmm I understand now. So basically wait until the fish look good and remove them and put them in a newly setup holding place. If the fish continue too look good then its just a matter of waiting for the fallow period to expire. If the ich comes back then wait until they drop off and do another swap. eventually after the tank has been fallow and the fish have looked clean for an extended time I should be good to go.

 

[ExpensiveHobby]

Can u not just move the inverts and hypo the display? May not be the worlds most effective treatment but it would be a heck of a lot easier than TTMing every fish.

Yes I can do this. I have already setup a ten gallon for the inverts in case I want to do this method. The down side is nuking my live rock. Are there any other down sides to this method? Do I just keep adding prime and doing W/c's while running hypo? I also assume I should shut down the skimmer and fuge and reactors?

also, could I just pull my live rock out and keep it live in a brute can for 72 days since killing it in the tank will make more trouble than just removing it? Then after hypo is complete, salinity is back up and the live rock has been fallow 72 days I can just put the live rock back in display and not have lost any microfauna or other living critters

Someone talk me out of this. This seems way way easier than making water day and night for transfers and having to go buy a 90 gallon setup and boxes of salt.

 

[moatdaddy]

hypo works. have done it and it is my most successful way of beating ich. I did mine for 3 weeks and tossed my tang and 2 clowns into a small qt tank at 1.016, simple light, heater, and a pvc to hide in. Just my experience.

 

[Tisbe]

I believe what ExpensiveHobby is saying is put the fish in the holding area now. Leave your display without fish for at least 72 days to get rid of the ich there. Now start moving the fish to a new holding contain often, which means no MORE than 72 hours in a container before you move them. After you no longer see the cysts (white nodes) growing on the fish you can stop moving them. Then they can just live in the holding area until the 72 days is over. Read up on the life cycle of ich to understand why you need to move the fish.

Good luck & Happy Reefing

 

[ExpensiveHobby]

I believe what ExpensiveHobby is saying is put the fish in the holding area now. Leave your display without fish for at least 72 days to get rid of the ich there. Now start moving the fish to a new holding contain often, which means no MORE than 72 hours in a container before you move them. After you no longer see the cysts (white nodes) growing on the fish you can stop moving them. Then they can just live in the holding area until the 72 days is over. Read up on the life cycle of ich to understand why you need to move the fish.

Good luck & Happy Reefing

why wouldnt I just wait until the cysts drop off in the display and then make the first move to a new container. I may get lucky and leave the ich behind right on the first transfer. Then its just a waiting game for the display

 

[MondoBongo]

why wouldnt I just wait until the cysts drop off in the display and then make the first move to a new container. I may get lucky and leave the ich behind right on the first transfer. Then its just a waiting game for the display

you might, you might not. but keep in mind two things:

1. the longer the fish are in the display, the longer you're going to have to wait to start your hypo period
2. you want to complete the full number of transfers for the best probability of leaving the infection behind. some fish may be infected, but could be asymptomatic.

 

[ExpensiveHobby]

you might, you might not. but keep in mind two things:

1. the longer the fish are in the display, the longer you're going to have to wait to start your hypo period
2. you want to complete the full number of transfers for the best probability of leaving the infection behind. some fish may be infected, but could be asymptomatic.

wait now im confused. I think TTM didnt rely on hypo at all, and secondly why do I need to wait to start the hypo period?

If I do hypo in display cant I begin it today?

 

[MondoBongo]

wait now im confused. I think TTM didnt rely on hypo at all, and secondly why do I need to wait to start the hypo period?

If I do hypo in display cant I begin it today?

your question was about waiting for the first transfer until you can see the cysts fall off the fish.

i assumed you were still asking about TTM.

TTM does NOT rely on hypo.

 

[Bent]

Yes I can do this. I have already setup a ten gallon for the inverts in case I want to do this method. The down side is nuking my live rock. Are there any other down sides to this method? Do I just keep adding prime and doing W/c's while running hypo? I also assume I should shut down the skimmer and fuge and reactors?

also, could I just pull my live rock out and keep it live in a brute can for 72 days since killing it in the tank will make more trouble than just removing it? Then after hypo is complete, salinity is back up and the live rock has been fallow 72 days I can just put the live rock back in display and not have lost any microfauna or other living critters

Someone talk me out of this. This seems way way easier than making water day and night for transfers and having to go buy a 90 gallon setup and boxes of salt.

I don't necessarily think it will nuke the live rock. You'd be shocked what some of those organisms can live through.

 

[Bent]

wait now im confused. I think TTM didnt rely on hypo at all, and secondly why do I need to wait to start the hypo period?

If I do hypo in display cant I begin it today?

Hypo and TTM are two different treatments.

TTM is more effective but having to treat as many fish as you have it's going to be a huge pain. Since you don't have any corals I would just pull the display down to 1.009 over a 48hour period. No more no less. Keep it there until you see the last sign of the parasite and after that continue for a full 4 weeks.

After 4 weeks, slowly bring the salinity back up to normal over 48hours or longer using salt in the top off water. 48hours minimum.

Then done. Unless the cysts have dove under the sand bed and survived, you should be free and clear.

If the diseases persists you will have to likely do TTM on each individual fish.