gon08
New member
What he said
Grown out Elkhorn A. palmata images?
- Thread starter ToLearn
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What he said
markie mark
New member
also I think that its pretty stupid that they dont set aside a grow out of the 2 caribbean acros for the hobby because when all of it dies they want have any seeds to replant it one day..ive seen the big aquaculture farm for these 2 corals and they could simply set some aside for the hobby and then make money for their research and time and money spent working on the farms instead of begging for it....wow,the coral could actually fund its own survival....and I dont think its illegal to buy it from you but for you to sale it...
Problem is at this point I guess it is easy to track. Apparently no one has these two species as all, if someone obtained it then they know it was obtained illegally. If it was offered legally through any means then how would you separate legal from illegal? You would create a demand quick and it may not make it worth it for someone in Washington state to drive out to FL, but locals could easily collect and make money and damage wild colonies.
The only way I could see it being done is if a company like ORA did it for the sole purpose of the educational value and made a huge loss on it. They would have to offer the frags dirt cheap and produce them in massive quantities so they could flood the market fast so there was 0 demand placed on wild colonies. This means they would have to set up a ware house or massive green house for the sole purpose of growing it out for years. It would be a pain to cut through all the red tape to make this project happen. Would be totally awesome, but slim chance we'll see it happen.
The only way I could see it being done is if a company like ORA did it for the sole purpose of the educational value and made a huge loss on it. They would have to offer the frags dirt cheap and produce them in massive quantities so they could flood the market fast so there was 0 demand placed on wild colonies. This means they would have to set up a ware house or massive green house for the sole purpose of growing it out for years. It would be a pain to cut through all the red tape to make this project happen. Would be totally awesome, but slim chance we'll see it happen.
Problem is at this point I guess it is easy to track. Apparently no one has these two species at all, if someone obtained it then they know it was obtained illegally. If it was offered legally through any means then how would you separate legal from illegal? You would create a demand quick and it may not make it worth it for someone in Washington state to drive out to FL, but locals could easily collect and make money and damage wild colonies.
The only way I could see it being done is if a company like ORA did it for the sole purpose of the educational value and made a huge loss on it. They would have to offer the frags dirt cheap and produce them in massive quantities so they could flood the market fast so there was 0 demand placed on wild colonies. This means they would have to set up a ware house or massive green house for the sole purpose of growing it out for years. It would be a pain to cut through all the red tape to make this project happen. Would be totally awesome, but slim chance we'll see it happen.
The only way I could see it being done is if a company like ORA did it for the sole purpose of the educational value and made a huge loss on it. They would have to offer the frags dirt cheap and produce them in massive quantities so they could flood the market fast so there was 0 demand placed on wild colonies. This means they would have to set up a ware house or massive green house for the sole purpose of growing it out for years. It would be a pain to cut through all the red tape to make this project happen. Would be totally awesome, but slim chance we'll see it happen.
Problem is at this point I guess it is easy to track. Apparently no one has these two species at all, if someone obtained it then they know it was obtained illegally. If it was offered legally through any means then how would you separate legal from illegal? You would create a demand quick and it may not make it worth it for someone in Washington state to drive out to FL, but locals could easily collect and make money and damage wild colonies.
The only way I could see it being done is if a company like ORA did it for the sole purpose of the educational value and made a huge loss on it. They would have to offer the frags dirt cheap and produce them in massive quantities so they could flood the market fast so there was 0 demand placed on wild colonies. This means they would have to set up a ware house or massive green house for the sole purpose of growing it out for years. It would be a pain to cut through all the red tape to make this project happen. Would be totally awesome, but slim chance we'll see it happen.
There was a species of fish that was rare or endangered and hard to get to reproduce in captivity that someone was able to get to reproduce. There wasn't a demand for it until they started selling these high dollar rarities. People started asking for them like crazy throwing money around and when there is money thrown around... people started diving and collecting them and importing them. The breeder cross bread the fish so it would become obvious what was being captive grown and what was imported and it was easy to check what was legal and what was not.
Sorry I only remember fuzzy details, Julian Sprung knows the story well. Point being demand could be created if they aren't put out in massive quantities dirt cheap. It would not be easy to cross breed corals so that they could be distinguished let alone keep an eye on the industry even if there was a way to tell them apart.
The only way I could see it being done is if a company like ORA did it for the sole purpose of the educational value and made a huge loss on it. They would have to offer the frags dirt cheap and produce them in massive quantities so they could flood the market fast so there was 0 demand placed on wild colonies. This means they would have to set up a ware house or massive green house for the sole purpose of growing it out for years. It would be a pain to cut through all the red tape to make this project happen. Would be totally awesome, but slim chance we'll see it happen.
There was a species of fish that was rare or endangered and hard to get to reproduce in captivity that someone was able to get to reproduce. There wasn't a demand for it until they started selling these high dollar rarities. People started asking for them like crazy throwing money around and when there is money thrown around... people started diving and collecting them and importing them. The breeder cross bread the fish so it would become obvious what was being captive grown and what was imported and it was easy to check what was legal and what was not.
Sorry I only remember fuzzy details, Julian Sprung knows the story well. Point being demand could be created if they aren't put out in massive quantities dirt cheap. It would not be easy to cross breed corals so that they could be distinguished let alone keep an eye on the industry even if there was a way to tell them apart.
markie mark
New member
No thats not what it meens at all..they could do the same thing their doing now and let mother nature grow it and sale for $100 an inch and fund their research and farms...that is the people that are doing the research and farming and re-planting the florida reefs.....not companys like ORA....They could simply set aside a spot on the ocean floor,take some frags,grow some colonies,then make more frags and then sale them to the hobby and they would be the only people you could get them from...the thing is that if I wanted a piece,I could drive down there and go get it....I could have got some last time I was there,its like drugs,their illegal but people still use them...I just think they could make some money for conservation and we could get some nice acros and everybody wins...and then when it all dies down there someone like me or you can say,heres a frag grow it out to re-plant....
You see my creating demand point though don't you? At $100 an inch what if someone starts posting "WTB large A palamata. will pay". You know what will happen, someone will go down and collect some illegally and it would be difficult to prove they hadn't gotten it from someone who grew it out after the legal ones had been out for a couple years.
As soon as they start selling it legally it could create more demand for illegals then there is now.
As soon as they start selling it legally it could create more demand for illegals then there is now.
markie mark
New member
I guess so...I just have a feeling there are people that already have this coral....I still think they should sale some....I heard you can get frags of both acros out of jamaica...
ousnakebyte
New member
It's attitudes like this that keep the global trade in illegal wildlife a lucrative business. The world's #1 importer of illegal wildlife? China. #2? Anyone? The U.S.A.
That's a fun little fantasy, and it seems very logical, but there are several things to consider:
- We like to think that we could reintroduce this from hobbyists' tanks, but I'd venture a guess that no one on this forum keeps ONLY Caribbean corals and no Indo-Pacific corals. Even if there are Caribbean-only setups, you risk transferring water (from an algae magnet, siphon hose, whatever) that houses IP corals to your Caribbean tank. Then, when the time comes, what from the Indo-Pacific are you reintroducing to the Caribbean? Probably not another Lionfish, but what about an invasive species of zooxanthellae, for example?
- We have no idea if we can take a coral from captivity, reintroduce it, and have it survive. But, experiments like that are just getting started; they are in their infancy. But, any zoo/aquarium participating in this has to prove a STRICT regiment of no contamination.
- A. palmata and A. cervicornis are listed on the ESA (Endangered Species Act). They have been given that status, and we should respect that status. It is no different, in my mind, than keeping an endangered tiger, frog, lizard, bird, snake, whatever. I realize the care requirements are different from tigers and corals, but the protected status is the same.
- Why do you want palmata and cervicornis? B/c they are rare? A threatened species in your home? It's certainly not b/c of their gorgeous color - they are brown sps. How many brown staghorns has anyone here ever given or thrown away? As for palmata, the character for that coral is in its growth pattern, but unless you have a tank the size of an SUV, then you won't ever see its full character.
- For palmata especially, it's not as simple as fragging it in the ocean and sending it to your tank. For reasons we do not know, this coral does not transport well - at all. The shipping mortality rate for this species is dismal - upwards of 95% mortality, I believe, for fragments cut and then shipped. Oh, some do make it, but they are VERY few. So, the whole "ocean-aquaculture" of this species for supplying to the hobby is a poor choice.
- The largest collection of live A. palmata is currently at Omaha Zoo, under the care of Mitch Carl - a fantastic aquarist, who has had the most success rearing this coral from a larva (see www.secore.org for more information).
- Live (zoos and aquariums) specimens and frozen (cryopreserved) genetic material is currently being rounded up into captivity and cryo banks around the US and Europe to insure the survival of these ecologically-important reef-builders. You don't need it in your tank.
Please do not encourage the global trafficking of illegal wildlife. As ToLearn already said, by encouraging selling it, you create more demand for the illegal side.
There are already too many people wanting to shut this hobby down - you don't need to add fuel to the fire.
Cheers
Mike
Have to say I agree with many of your points and your overall theme, but I have some details to argue.
You state that no one in the hobby only keeps animals from the Caribbean, but what about public aquariums or ORA in Florida? Do these places keep siphon tubes and scrub brushes used on clown fish systems out of the systems that are open to the wild? For that matter do they not keep propagation systems containing animals from other oceans in open systems with water that goes in and out of the local area?
Public aquariums and large propagation facilities have much great risk of introducing non native species to the wild. Why? How home aquarist have stony corals which aren't fragemented in a long period of time and are kept healthy enough to spawn in aquarium(which may be plumbed strait to the ocean)? How many hobbyist have tangs and angelfish spawning in captivity?
Just a little food for thought on the issue.
Also as far as those species of Acropora transporting horribly, what species of wild Acropora does have great survival rates? Also how many hobbyist have had a chance to transport. I would venture to guess hobbyist could very well have better sucsess rate then marine biologist.
Ok that last sentence may seem like a bold statement, but hear me out. There is a massive retail store on the east coast that hires, "Marine bioligist" to run their fish room. Because you have starred at books for 4 years as an undergrad doesn't mean you even know how to create a siphon or fragment a coral. These "experts" have no hands on experience.
I once saw a Marine biologist who was head of a large graduate program test ammonia by the book once a week and couldn't understand why he was losing fish. The book didn't tell him he had to check the expiration date on the API test kit he was using.(said right on top of it that it expired two years prior to when it was being used)
I can give many more examples, but hobbyist in general may have more drive and motivation to keep the animals alive and in many many cases have more practical hands on experience.
Point being the species many not be that hard to transport.
Again I agree with your overall attitude towards it and agree hobbyist need to be careful and project a positive image of the hobby. Just wanted to argue those points.
You state that no one in the hobby only keeps animals from the Caribbean, but what about public aquariums or ORA in Florida? Do these places keep siphon tubes and scrub brushes used on clown fish systems out of the systems that are open to the wild? For that matter do they not keep propagation systems containing animals from other oceans in open systems with water that goes in and out of the local area?
Public aquariums and large propagation facilities have much great risk of introducing non native species to the wild. Why? How home aquarist have stony corals which aren't fragemented in a long period of time and are kept healthy enough to spawn in aquarium(which may be plumbed strait to the ocean)? How many hobbyist have tangs and angelfish spawning in captivity?
Just a little food for thought on the issue.
Also as far as those species of Acropora transporting horribly, what species of wild Acropora does have great survival rates? Also how many hobbyist have had a chance to transport. I would venture to guess hobbyist could very well have better sucsess rate then marine biologist.
Ok that last sentence may seem like a bold statement, but hear me out. There is a massive retail store on the east coast that hires, "Marine bioligist" to run their fish room. Because you have starred at books for 4 years as an undergrad doesn't mean you even know how to create a siphon or fragment a coral. These "experts" have no hands on experience.
I once saw a Marine biologist who was head of a large graduate program test ammonia by the book once a week and couldn't understand why he was losing fish. The book didn't tell him he had to check the expiration date on the API test kit he was using.(said right on top of it that it expired two years prior to when it was being used)
I can give many more examples, but hobbyist in general may have more drive and motivation to keep the animals alive and in many many cases have more practical hands on experience.
Point being the species many not be that hard to transport.
Again I agree with your overall attitude towards it and agree hobbyist need to be careful and project a positive image of the hobby. Just wanted to argue those points.
markie mark
New member
Why dose it matter why I would like either of these corals,I guess to add to my collection...and I understand about the endangered species...I guess if all the tigers die in the wild than at least maybe my grand kids will get to see a LIVE one in a zoo...so same for the coral I guess...maybe if we cant save them in the wild than we can let them live on in aquariums for as long as possible...I saw more palmata on mollases reef when I was there then cervicornis...its just another stag but still holds its on beauty being 1 of 2 from native waters which I think is cool...as for palmata I just love its growth pattern..only one with that type of growth...where theres a will theres a way...I meen,in countrys like jamaica and other little caribbean islands that dont have rock quaries,they blast the reefs to make gravel roads...I guess thats better than me keeping it my tank also...maybe those countries should sale some so they can barge in some 57 stone....
markie mark
New member
quote that and tell me your thoughts please..just interested to know??? Maybe the stuff will start spreading so fast we want have to worry about it in the future and we can have some...
Slim chance of that happening. Many many things leading to the demise of these corals. Probably the biggest of which is ocean acidification, we would have to find some sort of alternative fuel source and stop pumping CO2 out of our cars. Ok, we did find alternative fuel sources, but not enough people care enough to switch to using them.
There should be a heck of a lot more A. palmata then there is. It used to be very dominant. You should seen an equal amount of ever species in the wild just like you shouldn't see 10 pine trees for every 10 maple trees you see in the forest.
You can't kick someone randomly and say it's justified and shouldn't matter because other people are murdering all the time. You can't take from Florida's water just because people are hurting reefs in other ways. Bigger evils occurring through out the world doesn't justify your wrong doing.
You may thing you taking a little piece may not matter, but all of these corals are on the edge of disease and destruction. One little fragment taken can damage it enough to allow disease to take over in the damaged area and the whole coral could die. A large disease corals can spread enough disease to other corals in surrounding areas. Your one little fragmentation can damage a large section of the reef. And if you think are justified others will think they are justified and can do the same thing.
I would love to see these corals raised in aquariums, I really would, but it needs to happen under the right circumstances.
There should be a heck of a lot more A. palmata then there is. It used to be very dominant. You should seen an equal amount of ever species in the wild just like you shouldn't see 10 pine trees for every 10 maple trees you see in the forest.
You can't kick someone randomly and say it's justified and shouldn't matter because other people are murdering all the time. You can't take from Florida's water just because people are hurting reefs in other ways. Bigger evils occurring through out the world doesn't justify your wrong doing.
You may thing you taking a little piece may not matter, but all of these corals are on the edge of disease and destruction. One little fragment taken can damage it enough to allow disease to take over in the damaged area and the whole coral could die. A large disease corals can spread enough disease to other corals in surrounding areas. Your one little fragmentation can damage a large section of the reef. And if you think are justified others will think they are justified and can do the same thing.
I would love to see these corals raised in aquariums, I really would, but it needs to happen under the right circumstances.
markie mark
New member
Well this is al lgreat information coming from some one that didn't even know what they had in their tank....I guess we're all killing the oceans by keeping reef tanks then right?like I said their killing more in other carribean countrys than we will ever harvest....this thread is so funny..I'm so surprised at your vast knoledge of this coral,especially not knowing what you have in your tank....
It's called reading dude. Isn't that hard to figure this stuff out. Started this thread to learn more about the coral and that's what I have begun to do.
Let's not take this so personally or start getting aggressive.
BTW you meant to recommend that small island nations "sell" endangered species not "sale" them. ;-)
Let's not take this so personally or start getting aggressive.
BTW you meant to recommend that small island nations "sell" endangered species not "sale" them. ;-)
ousnakebyte
New member
As I understand it, water is supposed to be treated - or at least filtered - before it heads back out from an open system.
However, it's also a proximity issue. In a closed, small tank, the chances of a coral uptaking a non-native zoox strain or a pathogen are greater in a smaller body of water. We have seen larval palmata take up zoox from a completely different clade, one that they have not seen in over 3 million years - it's very interesting, by the way.
This is all in its infancy right now, but if a public aquarium is going to house palmata or cervicornis for a reintro. experiment, they have to demonstrate the proper quarantine protocols - dedicated system, dedicated tools, and often only a few people will be working the system to ensure no cross contamination. The point is that no palmata or cervicornis colony will be a candidate for reintroduction if it has been in the same system with IP corals.
Look - any time you start transmitting animals around the world, the risk of introducing a non-native species increases. But, there are controls that large-scale institutions try to implement, and are inspected on, to minimize that happening.
Huh? I'm not going to say that there is not one person here or in the hobby who has a system that is plumbed straight to/from the ocean, but I would venture a guess that it is very few. But that is only one of my (and others) concerns. I'll address other concerns further below with the other guy's comments.
As for hobbyists having successful coral spawnings in their home aquariums...??? Heh, heh... okay, yes, the occasional stony coral does spawn - very infrequently - in home aquariums. How many people here have had wild success with rearing their one broadcasting spawning coral from larvae to adult - not including P. damicornis (which is a brooder and will settle out just about anywhere)? I'm talking the hermaphroditic broadcasters here.
Sexual reproduction in the home aquarium is not impossible, but right now so very infrequent, that it is a novelty and a fish feeding/skimmer killer at best.
If you are worried about coral larvae escaping to the ocean and establishing itself, you need more than one individual of the same species broadcasting at the same time, successful fertilization, a delicate development stage of a week or so.... I'm not sure what the point is here.
But, yes.... we are all gun-shy from the current Lionfish invasion that we do not want to inadvertently make things worse by introducing something else to already stressed ecosystems. The more people you have with no or few controls, the likeliness of something like that increases.
All of those "maricultured" species of corals coming in from the IP right now. The majority have significantly better survival rates than palmata.
I have spoken at length with Eric Borneman (who has transported this coral many times) and others about this (transporting A. palmata and cervicornis), and everyone who I have ever spoken to has agreed that the most difficult thing about palmata is getting it from the ocean to the tank. It's really not that difficult to ship a coral - bag, water, coral - maybe a heat or cool pack. Or, if you want to dry ship - coral, bag, wet towel and heat/cool pack.
Adult fragments of this coral usually die in transit or shortly thereafter. Cervicornis is a little more easily dealt with but by no means is a "hardy" coral, but more cervicornis exists in captivity b/c it is slightly more easily kept than palmata. Not all stony corals are created equal, and unfortunately, Caribbean acroporids are among the more difficult of the acroporids to keep.
However, I do agree that aquarists usually have a better idea of how to keep these animals alive than marine scientists, and this was one of the original ideas fueling SECORE. For probably the first time on a large scale, aquarists were working alongside scientists trying to establish a captive population of A. palmata. However, b/c of the dismal survival rates of adult fragments, the decision was made to establish the captive population using the larvae that seem to adapt much better to captive life than the adults.
Due to the threatened status of these animals, it is my firm belief that this and other projects should remain in the hands of public institutions (aquariums and zoos) and research institutions.
It matters to me that this is a protected species; it's respect for the Endangered Species Act. As I stated above, the protected status of these animals, for me, is the same as keeping any other threatened/endangered species - it does not need to be in the hands of the general public. Reserve these animals for the public and research institutions - who have proper permitting - that can provide conservation education to the masses and controlled experiments to learn more about them, respectively. The hobbyist does not have the ability to educate the hundreds of thousands - or even millions - of visitors that a zoo/aquarium can accommodate on a yearly basis.
Once you start adding a protected species to your home collection, you become a poacher - as far as I'm concerned.
Yes, and as I have alluded to above, zoos/aquariums can serve as repositories for preserving endangered species - I whole-heartedly believe in this mission. In ten years, probably the only place you will find a live Orangutan is in a zoo, if trends continue in Borneo. But, b/c of the protected status of these animals - regardless if it is an Orang, coral, bird, snake, whatever, they DO NOT need to be in the hands of the general public. Once you open the door for a precedent like that, then can hobbyists have endangered birds? Amphibians? What else?
And, as I already stated above, the hobbyist cannot possibly reach the multitude of visitors that a public aquarium can.
We have started establishing a captive population of both palmata and cervicornis, and the project is still continuing. If you TRULY want to help save palmata and cervicornis from extinction, then donate money to some institution that is engaged in the efforts. SECORE takes donations. But, to me, it sounds as if you are more concerned in trying to add it to your personal collection b/c it is a rare/forbidden item that "looks cool."
Yes, I am aware of the plight of reefs in developing countries and island nations. The answer to saving A. palamta is not to establish a fishery for an already stressed and diseased/dying wild population but rather to help alleviate the local and global stressors that have caused the decline, while assisting these countries in developing in environmentally-friendly ways.
If you are so keen on getting these two species in your hands, why not also go for the third - even MORE RARE - Caribbean Acroporid, A. prolifera - the hybrid of cervicornis and palmata?
Cheers
Mike
markie mark
New member
I understand your concerns completly...It really dosen't matter to me...this whole thing has got blown out of proportion...I hope the corals live on forever....or get turned into dirt roads like they have for a while...either way i'm not gonna loose sleep over it....i'm glad tolearn had time ''tolearn'' the difference in his genera in the course of this thread..I still think its funny that he had to legally aquire a piece elkhorn monti a few years ago..I didnt know you to legally aquire a frag from another person....
markie mark
New member
and i'm not a poacher,if the corals were able to be purchased legally than I would buy one for sure...like I said,anybody can go to the keys and pop a frag and bring it home....why are all the stony corals illegal to harvest there? like the mustard hill coral?type of porites...it covered every square inch of just mollases reef when I was there..it cant be endangered???
markie mark
New member
I've heard of the prolifera and just googled it...looks alot like A.cervincornis...I'm not trying to stay in a long debate on this thread but It would be cool if the corals were able to be purchased in my opinion..I understand about the whole endangered/conservation ordeal...would still be cool if a limited number of these corals were able to get into the hobby...if the wild ones took a turn for the worst than I still think there would be a better chance of replanting one day than if theres none to replant....
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