H. reidi is subtropical?
- Thread starter inazuma
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No, I think you are correct, in a real world sense. On the east coast of the US and along the northern Gulf of Mexico most seahorses encountered will be H. erectus. There are a relatively moderate number of reidi in the Keys, and a very few Gulf Stream strays further north. In the tropical Caribbean, almost all the seahorses you see will be reidi. In my experience as a fish watcher, H. reidi is basically tropical with an overlap into subtropical water. Erectus is more subtropical and temperate.
Because the sea is dynamic, you will always find some fishes beyond their usual ranges. In any case, subtropical and tropical are somewhat relative concepts, reflecting land geography more than oceanic conditions.
Because the sea is dynamic, you will always find some fishes beyond their usual ranges. In any case, subtropical and tropical are somewhat relative concepts, reflecting land geography more than oceanic conditions.
Those NY seahorses, like those here in NJ, are invariably H. erectus. They can be found in most weedy bays and inlets during summer and fall months, and are common in some places. A commercial bait collector I know trawls for grass shrimp in Barnegat Bay and often catches several dozen seahorses in a single evening, along with Spiny Boxfish, filefish, trunkfish, and Spotfin Butterfly fish.
I'm no expert, but it seems to me that northern vs. southern erectus is only regional variation, not even rising to a subspecific level. There are some distinct populations with recognizable characteristics, especially in large, somewhat self-contained systems, like Tampa Bay. Still, there is a great deal of variation across all regional populations, in my experience. Some of the southern seahorses, living in ideal conditions with unlimited food and long warm water growing seasons do get much larger.
I have an erectus female ( the only seahorse in my collection) that I caught here in NJ when it was about an inch long. It is now extremely large for a 'northern' erectus, and shows no signs of slowing down. Like most erectus, she is an active hunter, unlike reidi, which tend to be ambush hunters and in general less active. For some reason, it seems that only wild H. erectus specimens grow dense cirri. This appears to be true of all H. erectus, wherever they originate.
I should point out that my experience with wild caught northern
H.erectus has been extremely positive. They are hardy, adapt to year-round warm water effortlessly, and are easy to feed. Most wild caught erectus will eat frozen mysis immediately, often the same day they are caught. Some, like mine, become extremely tame, and can be hand fed by holding a semi-frozen chunk of food just below the surface. She is the sole vertebrate occupant of a 50 gallon tank, and has been treated with very special consideration since she was almost inadvertently flushed away down a basement drain when she was first caught. She hung by her tail upside down, clinging to a soapy drain cross piece for about 15 minutes before I discovered and rescued her.
I have an erectus female ( the only seahorse in my collection) that I caught here in NJ when it was about an inch long. It is now extremely large for a 'northern' erectus, and shows no signs of slowing down. Like most erectus, she is an active hunter, unlike reidi, which tend to be ambush hunters and in general less active. For some reason, it seems that only wild H. erectus specimens grow dense cirri. This appears to be true of all H. erectus, wherever they originate.
I should point out that my experience with wild caught northern
H.erectus has been extremely positive. They are hardy, adapt to year-round warm water effortlessly, and are easy to feed. Most wild caught erectus will eat frozen mysis immediately, often the same day they are caught. Some, like mine, become extremely tame, and can be hand fed by holding a semi-frozen chunk of food just below the surface. She is the sole vertebrate occupant of a 50 gallon tank, and has been treated with very special consideration since she was almost inadvertently flushed away down a basement drain when she was first caught. She hung by her tail upside down, clinging to a soapy drain cross piece for about 15 minutes before I discovered and rescued her.
Wow.... amazing story
The reason I'm inclined to believe the subspecies theory, are the reports of "Northern" erectus having pelagic fry, and "Southern" erectus having benthic. But theories aren't always correct!
I'd like to know more about your female, if you don't mind...
How old is she now? How long is she? And most importantly, do you have pictures???
Oh! One more thing. Your observations of the behavioral differences between H. erectus and H. reidi are very interesting. Are they of wild individuals? Can you elaborate further?
If you prefer to PM, I have no problems.
I'm not familiar with the benthic fry theory. I know I've seen many tiny newborn erectus floating at the surface in Tampa Bay and Sarasota Bay, while wade fishing for Snook and Sea Trout. One July day not long ago I was fishing on the bay side of the Sunshine Skyway, knee deep, and watched facinated as literally hundreds of tiny seahorses floated by me at the surface, at dusk. They seem to disperse just like the newborn erectus I have seen here in NJ's Barnegat Bay. Obviously, the movement of tiny seahorses is completely determined by water currents.
My female is three years old. I caught her in late August 2005. She was in a 5 gal bucket with a few full sized seahorses I'd collected that day. After I put those fish in my holding tank, I dumped the bay water into the basement drain. As I was getting into my car about 15 minutes later, I rembered the tiny one I had tossed into the bucket. It was about an inch long, with tail curled, maybe an inch and a half straightened out. I realized what I'd done and raced back down the basement stairs, with the dread certainty that she was well on her way to a sewage treatment plant. I looked into the old stone sink, and there was the a tiny tail, barely visible, curled in a death grip, the seahorse hanging in a dank smelly pipe. I carefully detached her. She was breathing hard and visibly damaged, but began taking food after a few days, and now has pride of place in my collection. She is about 6 inches long, uncurled. I have lots of pics, it's only a matter of learning how to post them. I'n not good at these things, being pre- technical. I still prefer my Nikon F3, but using it is no longer economically realistic.
My observation about reidi being less active and more of still ambush hunter is based entirely on watching them in the wild; snorkeling over shallow grass beds, and scuba diving over shallow reefs. They are not often seen on the deeper reefs. Erectus are agressive feeders, chasing down fleeing prey in a way I've never seen with reidi. Of course, my observations of reidi are limited to only a few dozen fish over many years, in Jamaica, Honduras, Dominica, and St. Vincent. I've observed, in the wild and in captivity, literally thousands of erectus.
Feel free to PM if you have any questions too narrow for this forum.
My female is three years old. I caught her in late August 2005. She was in a 5 gal bucket with a few full sized seahorses I'd collected that day. After I put those fish in my holding tank, I dumped the bay water into the basement drain. As I was getting into my car about 15 minutes later, I rembered the tiny one I had tossed into the bucket. It was about an inch long, with tail curled, maybe an inch and a half straightened out. I realized what I'd done and raced back down the basement stairs, with the dread certainty that she was well on her way to a sewage treatment plant. I looked into the old stone sink, and there was the a tiny tail, barely visible, curled in a death grip, the seahorse hanging in a dank smelly pipe. I carefully detached her. She was breathing hard and visibly damaged, but began taking food after a few days, and now has pride of place in my collection. She is about 6 inches long, uncurled. I have lots of pics, it's only a matter of learning how to post them. I'n not good at these things, being pre- technical. I still prefer my Nikon F3, but using it is no longer economically realistic.
My observation about reidi being less active and more of still ambush hunter is based entirely on watching them in the wild; snorkeling over shallow grass beds, and scuba diving over shallow reefs. They are not often seen on the deeper reefs. Erectus are agressive feeders, chasing down fleeing prey in a way I've never seen with reidi. Of course, my observations of reidi are limited to only a few dozen fish over many years, in Jamaica, Honduras, Dominica, and St. Vincent. I've observed, in the wild and in captivity, literally thousands of erectus.
Feel free to PM if you have any questions too narrow for this forum.
ann83
New member
The key here is that fishbase is defining tropical, subtropical, etc. based on geographic region, not based on temperature ranges. Because seahorses span such large geographic ranges, most seahorses are categorized as subtropical and temperate by the sorts of organizations that do categorization like that. H. reidi is found ocassionally north of the gulf of mexico through the south of Brazil; in estuaries, seagrass, shallow reefs, and often times quite deep.
As for temperature ranges, while they can be found in areas of warmer waters, they are often found at depths where the water is cooler. A good temperature range for them is 70*-74*, although temperatures to 66* and 76* will be tolerated. Outside that range (higher or lower), however, and you will see stress, especially in an aquarium situation.
Perhaps the specimens that have been observed by ackee seemed to be inactive due to the higher temperatures and flow in the areas they were observed, perhaps not. With such a wide range and variation of habitat, it is hard to generalize without extensive observation of the species throughout its range (which I don't have). My observations, and much of what I've read, of captive reidi differ quite a bit from ackee in that I find them to be very active and strong hunters, especially the females; however I wouldn't expect captive behavior to be representative of the wild population.
As for H. erectus, they have a broad temperature range as well (obviously - gulf to new england), and also happen to be categorized as subtropical by fishbase based on geographic range. The northern and southern varieties do exhibit morphological differences (as do the mid-section chesapeake bay varieties), and the southern erectus do consistently have larger demersal fry while the northern consistently have small pelagic fry, a marked difference. However, whether or not there is a move toward genetic subspecization is still unclear as far as I know; but I think that they are believed to be genetically the same species at this point.
As for temperature ranges, while they can be found in areas of warmer waters, they are often found at depths where the water is cooler. A good temperature range for them is 70*-74*, although temperatures to 66* and 76* will be tolerated. Outside that range (higher or lower), however, and you will see stress, especially in an aquarium situation.
Perhaps the specimens that have been observed by ackee seemed to be inactive due to the higher temperatures and flow in the areas they were observed, perhaps not. With such a wide range and variation of habitat, it is hard to generalize without extensive observation of the species throughout its range (which I don't have). My observations, and much of what I've read, of captive reidi differ quite a bit from ackee in that I find them to be very active and strong hunters, especially the females; however I wouldn't expect captive behavior to be representative of the wild population.
As for H. erectus, they have a broad temperature range as well (obviously - gulf to new england), and also happen to be categorized as subtropical by fishbase based on geographic range. The northern and southern varieties do exhibit morphological differences (as do the mid-section chesapeake bay varieties), and the southern erectus do consistently have larger demersal fry while the northern consistently have small pelagic fry, a marked difference. However, whether or not there is a move toward genetic subspecization is still unclear as far as I know; but I think that they are believed to be genetically the same species at this point.
I have frequently seen Caribbean reidi in extremely shallow water, not much more than 15 inches deep, only a few feet from fairly calm sandy beachs. These fish tended to attach themselves to old submerged tree branches and plants. The water temps were in the low to mid 80sF. A few feet further out, maybe 10 to 20 feet from shore, in about two to 3 feet of water, turtle grass began to grow thickly, with small patch reefs. There were many reidi here as well, in the turtle grass. Temps were generally in the high 70s to low 80s during late spring and summer, when they were most active. I usually did not see any slightly further out, around the first fringing reefs, 50 to 100 yards from shore, in about 6 to10 feet of water. I began to see them again, in much smaller numbers, on the shallow reefs, 40 to 60 feet down. In general, the most reidi were seen when temps were at least 77 to 78F. On islands like Dominica, which I visit often, reidi are most common in areas with water temps in the mid to high 70s, where currents are moderate and there is lots of structure (and food). In Dominica, they tend to be more singular, deeper, and more widely dispersed. In Jamaica, where I lived for nearly a year, there were certain places were one could count on finding clusters of reidi, especially dring the warmest water periods, May to November. Temps ran high 70s to low 80s. The fish were close to shore. Scuba groups would become excited about finding one or two specimens, when a mile inshore, against the beach, there were lots of reidi happily mating and producing young.
In NJs Barnegat Bay, erectus seem to congregate in places where the water is well into the 70s. Temps in the low 60s (as in late October) seems to put them into a curled up semi-dormant state, allowing them to be carried more by currents than free swimming. During late summer they congregate in shallow thick eel grass, actively mating and carrying on normal communitarian activity, with water temps in the mid-70s.
I've been a fish watcher and note-taker for more than 30 years, scuba since the 70s, and snorkeling before that. I am not a researcher, nor want to be one. I see very, very few academic field workers, and those few I have known spend absurdly short periods observing, counting, etc., generally reflecting the constraints imposed by thesis advisors and other scheduling limitations. They tend to rely heavily on what some other semi-informed colleague has published.
I am a recently retired academic (not Biology) and am familiar with the frequently rickety theoretical structures created by these functional amatuers.
I agree with you about the concept of 'tropical', etc., being more a land geography than an oceanic concept. In fact, I clearly made that point in my first post in this string.
In NJs Barnegat Bay, erectus seem to congregate in places where the water is well into the 70s. Temps in the low 60s (as in late October) seems to put them into a curled up semi-dormant state, allowing them to be carried more by currents than free swimming. During late summer they congregate in shallow thick eel grass, actively mating and carrying on normal communitarian activity, with water temps in the mid-70s.
I've been a fish watcher and note-taker for more than 30 years, scuba since the 70s, and snorkeling before that. I am not a researcher, nor want to be one. I see very, very few academic field workers, and those few I have known spend absurdly short periods observing, counting, etc., generally reflecting the constraints imposed by thesis advisors and other scheduling limitations. They tend to rely heavily on what some other semi-informed colleague has published.
I am a recently retired academic (not Biology) and am familiar with the frequently rickety theoretical structures created by these functional amatuers.
I agree with you about the concept of 'tropical', etc., being more a land geography than an oceanic concept. In fact, I clearly made that point in my first post in this string.
No, I did not at all feel that you were argumentative. You seem to know enough to realize that we know in fact very little. That kind of realistic and constructive attitude tends to eliminate contentiousness.
I apologize for any negative impression I may have communicated. I truly appreciated your comments and informed observations.
I apologize for any negative impression I may have communicated. I truly appreciated your comments and informed observations.
