heat transfer of submersible pumps

ChemE did you ever do the experiment with the closed system. It seems like there's concensus with the "engineers" on the forum. Still good to see the actual results. Maybe if you're lucky, something in the salt mix will start a cold (okay warm) fusion reaction and show that the heater side does heat up more than the motor side.

In regards to speed, the key is not to go faster, but to find connections between planes. btw, worm holes don't exists, it's just explanation for things we really don't know yet.
 
Bean Animal,

"No matter how many times you try to explain to these morons, that, at the end of the year they get that money back (unless of course they cross into the next tax bracket), the just don't get it. They will fist fight over the fact that if you work overtime, you lose money."

I wouldn't be calling people morons. Perhaps you don't see something that they do. To accept something that is widely accepted has always slowed the progress of our understanding.

it's true that the more you work the more money you lose.

scenario 1) total is less than minimum limit to file tax, then the money lost would be at least the amount needed to file the income tax return.

scenario 2) increase in tax rate due to higher bracket (you mentioned this already), brackets are not that big so it's a good possibility

scenario 3) you make 40 K at x% rate (say 20%), with overtime you make 50K. 40k*.2 is less than 50k*.2, the difference is the increase in the money you lose working overtime.

with the closed system for the purpose of this thread, at any given point in time while power is being consumed (equally by both sides), the tank with water moving is going to have a lower temperature than the side where the water is not. This is a rather simple concept to understand as well.
 
Connections between planes are not hard to find, it's just getting to the other side of the airport in time to make it through security that is hard.

If one were to use a certain well known brand of power head, fusion is always in the cards. It comes during the enlightenment when the 110V and saltwater knocks the snot out of you. Who says you need a monk and a stick (worm holes or not) to see the light.

There is no doubt that there is temperature loss due to many of the things mentioned above. An experiment is only going to prove the Laws we already know exist. The temps will not come out the same due to the loses we already know about.

The human voice itself causes temperature gradients of +/-0.0001 degree. Oh wait what did I just say? Sound is energy, and energy moves things. Not all of the "sound" from the pump is lost to the outside environment. Some of the sound heats the water (of course we know this because it has to move through the water). The point is some sound escapes (taking energy with it) and some sound is absorbed, storing the energy in the water and/or causing it to move.

Did you know that sound is also being use to power a freezer! Yup http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1861434

I wonder when the aquarium chiller will be out.
 
The more you work the more money you lose? Maybe we should all work part time then!

Okay so instead of working 45 hours a week (40 straight and 5 OT), I can make more money working 40 and skipping the OT? Okay, sign me up! I should turn down that raise as well, in case it bumps me up into the next tax bracket!

Of course the moving tank will have a lower temperature, evaporation will be faster... There really is not much more to establish with regards to what is going on with the water or the temperature. I think we have beat this topic all the way to the event horizon, it just refuses to be sucked into the singularity.
 
"I should turn down that raise as well, in case it bumps me up into the next tax bracket!"

if it causes you to hit AMT, you should seriously consider it. Rather asks for other compensation instead. :)

Also, in regards to OT, instead of using $ as a value for one's time, use something else like the utility of time. For instance, one OT hr for $40 or one OT hr to fix an electrical short that was quoted at $150 by the electrician .... okay i'm going way off topic here but you get the point.

Anyways, it's been great fun following this thread.
 
No.. I really dont get the point, but thats OK. If you make enough to move into a real tax bracket, then you make enough to take more than the standard deduction. If a person can't figure that out (or pay an accountant to) they deserve to stay in the "no tax" bracket. Not that I agree with or am happy about ANY tax bracket.

BTW for those kiddies out there that think their favorite tree huggers (Ben and Jerry) invented the sonic chiller.... I hate to break the news, it was Einstein and Szilard. Then again most kiddies don't know who they were either (at least Szilard). Todays kiddes think that E= MC sqaured is a famous quote by their favorite rapper.

"Yo E you gonna MC that sqaure Dance?"

Bean
 
Not that its on topic but this thread keeps straying...

I've actually heard people say "E=mcÃ"šÃ‚²?!?! That's so easy!! I could have come up with that!" Now, I just have to marvel at this level of ignorance.
 
The ironic reality of it is that very few people on this planet understand it. Some of us stuggle just to wrap our brains around a tiny piece of that equation and it's meaning. Just being able to do that is beyond most people. It's kind of neat if you think about it, we have gone way off topic, but then again, that equation is the premise behind the entire conversation.

Billions upon billions (what a fruitcake)....

Bean
 
In my opinion, the difficulty of EMC is the precise definition of E and M in this case. What struck me as amazing about the discovery of this relationship was that it was proven theoretically first - akin to Maxwell's equations. This order of events is largely unprecidented in the sciences.

Some of the forums on RC are only listed back two pages, and often the whole list can be gone through in a day. I can find some older threads via searching, and even older ones by using google. Why is this? Lighting and equipment goes back 100pages, but doesn't get 100pages of activity every day. The reason I'm asking is because there are some threads that I'd like to save, like this one, and am not sure if I need to put them on my hd or simply save the link. What determines when a thread is gone forever?

Found this on google, not on rc search:

http://198.92.103.102/forums/showthread.php?threadid=640633&perpage=25&pagenumber=8

G1
 
Threads are never gone forever (unless the admins do a purge, in that case they end up in the ether). It's one big database :)
 
This is a fascinating discussion and, in fact, it will take some effort to construct a valid experiment. Nevertheless there is an important message here for aquarium owners. That is: pumps heat your system and higher wattage pumps generate proportionally more heat so it makes sense to: a) use external pumps as much as possible and b) try to get the flow you need from the smallest number of and lowest wattage pumps...that is, if water temperature is a problem. Other equipment, especially lights transfer even more heat to the system so it makes sense to try to minimize these heat sources. I think some hobbyists use MHs where PCs or VHOs would be adequate, leave them on for too much time each day, and fail to take measures to dissipate the heat (fans for example).
 
Johnny of you slug through the entire thread, you will find that we really don't need an experiement... it's a basic application of science (as stated above).

With regards to the conclusions you have drawn regarding pumps... they are for the most part correct. External pumps are usually better, and more efficient pumps are also better.

With regards to lighting... The problem is not as cut and dry. VHO bulbs put off a tremendous amount of heat, just not as a point source. They don't feel as hot... but back to physics again. 500W of halides and 500W of VHO both consume the same amount of energy and therefore.... well you know where this is going.

That said, different spectrums of light heat objects differently than others due to absorbtion and reflection of the different wavelengths. If the wavelenght is absorbed by the object, so is the heat. If the wavelength is reflected, so is the heat (most of it).

Where the lighting question becomes relavant is with regards to what style of lamp has the most useble PAR per watt. The other relevant portion of the equation would surround what type of bulb gets the surface pentration capable of delivering that PAR to the area it is needed. So there is no easy answer for the choice of bulbs.
 
A 100W submerged pump is the same as a 100W heater. This is wrong.
The energy that consumes by both the devices is the same, but the heat generated from both devices is difference. The power needs certain a mount of enegry to generate a designed flow rate; however, the coefficient of the power head is limited to maximum that is about 40% (very good coefficient machine). So 60% of energy is lost during operation are fiction and water resistance, which will transfer to heat. On the other hand, the heat is design for only to generate heat. It is more efficient and most of the energy consumed by the heater will transfer to heat. I can explain in physic and thermodynamics and heat transfer concepts, but that would be too much on this website.

coefficient
 
It will warrant a full explanation as soon as you can squash 1 single calorie of energy out of existence....



in fact I will kiss you on the lips too
 
It does not matter how efficient the heater is, and how inefficient an electric motor is. They both still consume 100W. In both cases the only place for the energy to go, is into the water. What thh water "does" with the energy is not really important. You said energy is "lost". Honestly your "explanation" trips over it's own merits. You said one of the loses is friction. Friction creates heat. You said another "loss" is water movement. Water movement requires energy.

And.... we are back to page one! (perpetual motion anybody?)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7351553#post7351553 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ddhuyn
A 100W submerged pump is the same as a 100W heater. This is wrong.
The energy that consumes by both the devices is the same, but the heat generated from both devices is difference. The power needs certain a mount of enegry to generate a designed flow rate; however, the coefficient of the power head is limited to maximum that is about 40% (very good coefficient machine). So 60% of energy is lost during operation are fiction and water resistance, which will transfer to heat. On the other hand, the heat is design for only to generate heat. It is more efficient and most of the energy consumed by the heater will transfer to heat. I can explain in physic and thermodynamics and heat transfer concepts, but that would be too much on this website.

coefficient
Click to expand...

I really don't intend to be rude but did you read the entire thread? The reason I ask is because all these points were discussed quite thoroughly and I feel like this post is antagonistic rather than legitimate.
 
What we all can agree on is that a correlation does exist between number of submerged powerheads and an increase in temperature.

I have a 72 gallon reef with five MJ1200's, a mag 1200 return, a mag 250 for the skimmer, a mag 350 for my UV unit and a MJ 900 for my phosphate reactor.

I run glass tops both on my sump and tank and with all these watts in my tank, the heat rises quickly.

I have noticed that as I added each additional pump from the beginning there has been a jump in water temperature directly as a result to this addition.

MG
 
ChemE,
"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by stugray
...If you put X amount of watts into a closed system, it must ALWAYS end up as heat. There is just no way around that ( unless we defy the law of entropy/enthalpy )...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Sorry but this isn't always true; just in reefkeeping. In fusion reactions some energy is converted into mass. This holds with Einstein's Law of Conservation of Mass-Energy and Einstein can beat up Kelvin any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Most here should know by now that I can't resist dropping a little science."


Sorry, I'm still right.



In my closed system analogy ( even WITH the fusion ) you just need to wait a few trillion years for proton decay and your fusion products will still turn to heat.

Stu ( just kickin it up a notch )

As for the "The reason I ask is because all these points were discussed quite thoroughly"... touché
 
What about the singularity.... what about the singularity. Wheres the heat, wheres the matter.... what about the singularity!
 
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