Heater, strange behavior

[hkgar]

I have a 180 DT with a 30 G sump. My heaters are Finnex 300 and 800 watt and a Theo Hydor 300 Watt.
A couple days ago I was a alerted to a low temp condition and the water temperature had dropped to 75 and was going down. I manually checked the heaters and discovered My Finnex 800W and 300W heaters were not functioning (They did not feel warm to my hand). The Hydor did feel warm. I put in an extra 100W and the heat began to increase.

I immediately ordered two new Finnex 800's.

Today I removed the nonfunctional heaters from the sump and when I brought them upstairs, just for kicks you might say, I plugged them into an outlet and the both got hot.

What gives? The heaters are controlled my Apex with a master control virtual outlet to control the 3 individual power outlets. I also tested the heater power outlets wit a shop light and they all work.

 

[mcgyvr]

Sounds like fit shappened...
Its all going to be guesses and assumptions..

That sounds like a lot of wattage though for a reef controller.. You sure you aren't exceeding its ratings?

 

[hkgar]

Probably not in total as the Apex EB 8 is rated at 15 amps. The might some question about the 800 watt on a single outlet that is apparently rated only for 5 amps.

I had two heaters on one EB8 and one on the second one.

 

[hkgar]

I was going to check the amp draw of the heaters but now my d*** Kill A Watt has quit working.

 

[greg683x]

Are you using the internal thermostat on the heater or are you controlling the heaters with a temp probe through the apex?

 

[hkgar]

......

 

[hkgar]

Are you using the internal thermostat on the heater or are you controlling the heaters with a temp probe through the apex?

Temp probe through Apex. Maybe you missed this in my original post? :headwallblue:

"What gives? The heaters are controlled my Apex with a master control virtual outlet to control the 3 individual power outlets".

 

[FullBoreReefer]

I am having almost the same issue. Apex controls my main heater and backup. I have random times my heater won't turn on, and the backup kicks on. Now it seems my main heater isn't keeping up. It's not that old, everything is ok, just seems weird it all of a sudden can't keep up...house temp hasn't changed any either so I'm not sure why is struggling

 

[Indymann99]

With my Apex I let the heaters SELF regulate and the APEX temp is ONLY a failsafe. If temp gets to high the heater outlets (2) turn OFF. I think using the APEX to turn OFF and ON the heater (to maintain temp) causes heaters to fail.

my 0.02

 

[Daddi0]

That sure is a lot of heater wattage, why so much?
Cheers! Mark

 

[homer1475]

With my Apex I let the heaters SELF regulate and the APEX temp is ONLY a failsafe. If temp gets to high the heater outlets (2) turn OFF. I think using the APEX to turn OFF and ON the heater (to maintain temp) causes heaters to fail.

my 0.02

I'm going to assume hes using the regular finnex heating tubes with no thermostat built in, so my reply will be in regards to that.

While I will agree with you about turning them off and on, but only if they have their own thermostats. If they are like the regular finnex titanium tubes, then they have to be turned on and off to work properly.

Hkgar, I have 2 300W finnex titanium heating tubes(the kind with no thermostats) and every once in a while they do not come on. Apex will say the outlets are on, but it's also screaming at me that my temp is low? And like you I will grab the heaters and they are cold. Also like you I had a virtual outlet controlling them both. I have since switched to just regular programming each outlet and did away with the virtual, I have not had a problem since.

No idea why the change or what difference programming each outlet instead of a virtual makes, but in my case it solved the problem.

FWIW, they worked great for 2 years on a virtual outlet, then one day they didn't. No idea what changed or why, but simply changing them to individually programmed outlet worked for me.

 

[mcgyvr]

I hope you have a dedicated 20A circuit just for your heaters for the most part.. You need it..
2 x 800W = 1600W/120=13.5Amps..
That really should be on a 20A circuit
Its really too much for a 15A circuit..

I know I'm not addressing your original question but we will likely never know the answer to that anyways so I'll address the bigger safety concern.. Just to make sure..

 

[hkgar]

I will not be using two 800 W heaters but 2 500 W and am thinking of having 1 in the DT and 1 in the sump. The sump is in the basement and I have an eb8 for lights and Gyre on the DT with a aquabus cable down to the Apex controller in the basement.

Yes, my sump operation is on a 20 amp circuit.

 

[gargoylenest]

Neptune Apex Energy Bar 8 (EB8)

• 8 independently controllable 120V Outlets (Max 5 Amps, total current must be less than 15 Amps)
• Plug and Play Built-in 6 Port hub so that accessories can be easily added
• Active electrical current monitoring

 

[mcgyvr]

Neptune Apex Energy Bar 8 (EB8)

• 8 independently controllable 120V Outlets (Max 5 Amps, total current must be less than 15 Amps)
• Plug and Play Built-in 6 Port hub so that accessories can be easily added
• Active electrical current monitoring

While I've seen that I do not know if they have anything actively preventing you from current levels in excess of 5A..
The 800W heater certainly is in excess of the EB8's specifications though..

And the heater issue "could" be because of impending failure (fire) of that circuit.. I'd be really cautious and would crack that bad boy up to inspect..

Long term exposure to current in excess of its rating can certainly degrade it and cause issues like you are experiencing.. You may wake up to a fire if you aren't careful/smart about how you proceed..

 

[gargoylenest]

probably some kind of thermistor protection circuit can cause this kind of issue. It will work, until circuit gets too hot. Saw this many time in various electronic devices.

 

[hkgar]

I made an error in my jfirst post I wrote
I have a 180 DT with a 30 G sump. My heaters are Finnex 300 and 800 watt and a Theo Hydor 300 Watt.

but should have written:
I have a 180 DT with a 30 G sump. My heaters are Finnex 300 and 500 watt and a Theo Hydor 200 Watt.

I did order two 800 wat heaters as I posted, but I will be returning them. I have the return authorized by BRS. I may order 2 500 W and use two 500 heaters.

I ordered the two 800 as 800 is what I saw recommended for a 140 gallon system (mine is about 145 TWV) and that would give me redundancy if one were to fail.

With everything controlled by my 2 eb8's turned on it tested to 10.2 amps. As I previously stated the circuit is 20 amp

 

[hkgar]

I'm going to assume hes using the regular finnex heating tubes with no thermostat built in, so my reply will be in regards to that.

While I will agree with you about turning them off and on, but only if they have their own thermostats. If they are like the regular finnex titanium tubes, then they have to be turned on and off to work properly.

Hkgar, I have 2 300W finnex titanium heating tubes(the kind with no thermostats) and every once in a while they do not come on. Apex will say the outlets are on, but it's also screaming at me that my temp is low? And like you I will grab the heaters and they are cold. Also like you I had a virtual outlet controlling them both. I have since switched to just regular programming each outlet and did away with the virtual, I have not had a problem since.

No idea why the change or what difference programming each outlet instead of a virtual makes, but in my case it solved the problem.

FWIW, they worked great for 2 years on a virtual outlet, then one day they didn't. No idea what changed or why, but simply changing them to individually programmed outlet worked for me.

There does not seem to be any explanation why shat we both experienced can be anything other than a problem with Finnex.

I began to wonder if the Finnex is submersible and nowhere can I see a claim that Finnex is a submersible pump. I asked the question of BRS yesterday but have not yet gotten an answer.

Never mind. Just got a new one and there is a big tag on the power cord stating the entire tube must be submersed with a drawing showing it lying on the sand bed