Help Help Help!!!

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grouper25

New member
I have a 220 FOWLR tank that is heavily populated with angels, niger, sohal, heniochus etc. I recently added a gorgeous tusk who, tragically, came with Ick and I stupidly did not Qt him beforehand. Anyway, the Tusk has had loads of white spots and has not been doing well despite treating the tank with KIck Ick, which proved ineffective. Now, my very large Scribbled Angel has gotten infected and is suffering as well. No other fish seem to be impaired but who knows where that will go. MY local store is very good and sold me some new(i believe) product called Kent RX-P, specifically designed to treat ICK. I placed the first dose in the tank last nite.

I am not confident that this will work either and need to do something proactive. So, tonite a fellow reefer is coming over and we are going to try to extract the Scribbled and Tusk and transfer them to a 10 gallon QT tank, assuming we can catch them in a 220.

Anyway, if we are successful in transfering them to the QT, what would be the best treatment option at that point. Should I try HYPO salinity or just dose the ten gallon with copper. I know angels do not fare all that well with Copper. I also have Cupermane as well?????

I too am sick over this as my Scribbled in huge and my favorite fish and I am seeing him degrade with each passing day.

So appreciate your help.....
 
What else is in the tank? What are your plans with it in the future? Perhaps you could just treat the tank with Cupramine and remove it later with water changes and polyfiber/cuprisorp. Treating only one or two fish will be next to worthless, as they could get it immediately after you re-introduce them back into the display.
 
IMO & IME: there are only 3 ways to cure ich: copper, hypo, or tank-transfer. I'd read the ich stickies at the top of this section of the forum. Not only do your two fish have ich, your whole system does. A larger QT should be a "must have' for anyone with fish like you're keeping. Like Chris27 said, you need to treat all the fish, maybe you can do it in your DT; or you could get a biggest HT/QT (try Craig's list) and not only do it right, but have an adequate HT/QT the next time you need one. Good luck, you have a big task ahead of you.
BTW, your post confused me a little---Cupramine is copper, the best brand, IMO.
 
There are many other fish in the tank but no inverts whatsoever.

I have thought of threating the whole tank with Cupramine as the value of the fish in there is huge. More important however, is that I am the steward of these fish and will do anything to save them. I have searched the threads for info on treating the entire tank with Cupramine but have found nothing here. Any thoughts????
 
grouper25 said:
There are many other fish in the tank but no inverts whatsoever.

I have thought of threating the whole tank with Cupramine as the value of the fish in there is huge. More important however, is that I am the steward of these fish and will do anything to save them. I have searched the threads for info on treating the entire tank with Cupramine but have found nothing here. Any thoughts????
Click to expand...
If treating in the DT is your only option; I'd call SeaChem (mfg of Cupramine) tech support and get a little help from them, they're great.. (888-seachem , I think) Treating with copper in a DT is tough, because the LR and substrate absorb copper and make monitoring copper level difficult. the Cupramine bottle suggests a copper level of .50 ppm. But, because angels are copper sensitive, I'd treat at about .35---which is effective. You'll need a good copper test kit; Sailfert or SeaChem. Not a slam; but I just don't understand the reluctance of many hobbyists to buy and use a decent QT---it will cost less than half the price of the tusk. there just isn't a decent substitute and I'll bet the farm that at least 2/3 of the postings in the disease section of this forum could have been avoided with using one. You're not alone; I learned the hard way too----but I learned.
 
Thanks for the input..... Life was all good until the Tusk came in.....Ughhhhhh and u are so right about the QT..... Oh well,,,I will heed your advice and call Seachem for some questions I have. Regards,,,,,
 
Called Seachem today and they were very helpful and informative. I will start the Cupramine dosing this evening assuming I find all alive when I get home tonite.
Will post an update here as to my progress. Since this has been the center of my attention for the last few days, I am seeing more and more folks dosing their larger FOWLR displays with this product with minimal dire consequences except the eradication of this dreaded parasite.
 
I went through the same thing you are years ago. I would not dose the display tank with LR/LS with cupramine. The treatment is difficult as the calcerous materials constantly absorb the copper.

Hyposalinity is much easier if you have to treat the DT for ich. I have done this twice myself in the past, both with success easily and readily. The LR/LS in the DT help overcome the most difficult part of hypo: pH shift. The only thing you have to worry aobut is having a refractometer well calibrated with calibration solution, and hold that salinity at 1.008-1.009 for the entire length of the treatment. An ATO helps tremendously.
 
I also want to make a comment on people who have heavy ich infestations. This is a sign that your tank is not an ideal environment. In my experience, most of the fish are quite resistant to ich when their immune system is good, and this only happens in a low-stress environment. This means, good water quality, good diet, minimal harassment from tankmates, ample hiding spots. basically, the fish need to feel comfortable in your tank for its immune system to be strong. A lot of new hobbyists do not create a stress-free environment because there are all these fish they want to buy, and as a result overstock their tank with incompatible fish. Water quality and good diet are often stressed upon, but it goes far beyond that. there are many things that cannot be measured with test kits, and that's when going by conventional wisdom and advice from experienced hobbyists will be most beneficial, until you advance in the hobby and develop a good eye to spot potential problems yourself. Whether picking compatible fish and proper aquascaping to allow hiding spots will often make or break your tank, especially if there is a disease going on. So the next time you introduce a fish into DT without quarantine, and all of a sudden the whole tank is heavily infested with ich (or something else), you should also think about improving the tank environment on top of treating for ich.
 
We gave our DT ick by doing the exact same thing (surprise, surprise, I know) not quarantining a new fish. Anyway we did have corals and inverts, so we tried Ick-Attack. It took 5 weeks and doubling the dosage, but it did clear the ick out of our system.

We just got a couple clowns that we actually quarantined (which was a good thing as they had Ick), treated with Ick-Attack for 1 week and it cleared up.

Best of luck to you.
 
Things had digressed badly when I got home last nite so I had no choice but to dose with Cupramine. The second dose goes in tomorrow night pending a copper measurement.

My experience with ICK is that the parasite weakens the fish so much that other problems arise which ultimately kill the fish as an outgrowth of the ICK.

I will keep you all posted. This is a real downer for me if I lose these two fish.
 
That is correct. I often relate ich to AIDS. the disease itself is not fatal. What it does is lowering the fish's immune system, exposing it to secondary bacterial and viral infections. That's what kills the fish ultimately.

Best of luck to you an I hope your fish recover from the disease.
 
Update

Update

Well here is an update. To date, this has been a very humbling experience. Despite starting Cupramine on the DT Tuesday night , I lost the Tusk yesterday.

My large Scribbled Angel was degrading as well so I was able to net him and transfer him to a 15 gallon tank which I thought was a better way to try to treat him accutely . He is in a bare tank with only a heater and airstone and I am treating Cupramine at .30mg/L based on my test results. His condidion has not improved yet he is still alive as of this morning. I am doing a 1/3 water change daily and then re-uping the copper. He is a large fish and a spectacular specimen. His eyes have been effected and I do not think he can see all that well. Also, he has what appears to be many white botches on his flanks which looks like some sort of resultant bacterial infection as an outgrowth of the ICK. My LFS, which is quite good, suggested yesterday that I add some Furan-2 into the tank along with the copper to help combat whatever it is that is degrading. Not sure if thats advisable and wanted to solicit some comments here if possible. Things are critical and I am just reaching outside the box to see if there is anything I can do to save this fish.

This has been a real bummer for me as I value these fish greatly. It has nothing to do with the $$ but rather the fact that I am their steward and this happened on my watch.

Thanks for the input
 
Ordinarily, I don't like to mix meds; but at this point, I think Furan would be a good choice. Angels are copper-sensitive, but can handle a dose of .35 or so, which is usually effective. However, mixing meds, you may have no choice but to try the .50 that SeaChem suggests. Please keep us posted, I'm afraid you still have your other fish to deal with (they should be de-wormed too) and need an adequate QT set-up for fish this size. Good luck.
 
UPdate

UPdate

Here is an update on my ICk nightmare.

1) As I previously advised, I sadly lost my beautiful Australian Tusk

2) Started Cupramine in the 220 DT last Tuesday(10/18) and kept the level at 25mg/L. It worked quite well and the four fish that were infected have all recovered nicely and are eating well with no noticable signs of the parasite.

3) Last but not least and my favorite fish of all-----my Scribbled Angel. I had been able to net him last Tuesday given his debilitated condition and was able to set up a hospital tank(15 gallon) with bare bottom, heater and airstone. He is a huge fish but was in bad shape with cloudy eyes, discoloration, eroding fins and a fungal/bacterial infection. He would also swim with his head pointed downward which is a sign of an equilibrium problem or swim bladder issue. I treated that tank with copper at 35mg/L for two days doing a 10 gallon water change daily. After 2 days on Cupramine,,,, I was desperate realizing the ICk had caused other issues so I added Furan-2 in a moderate dose to treat the bacterial and fungal infections.I still continued to do heavy water changes and then let him have non medicated water for a few hours and then redose both meds. Here we are a week later and the fish looks great and his body has never looked better. The only issue is that I think he had gone blind and does not appear to see all that well. He was like this when I put him in the QT so its not the meds.

I am now only treating her with a light dose of Furan 2 and doing daily water changes at 1.02 SG. The film that was on her eyes appears to be disappating and she appears to have some vision coming back as she flinches when I put a stick in front of her. Hopefully, this will happen soon. Also, she has not eaten in a week despite me leaving some pellets in the tank. She is a very fat fiish as she her diet has been mostly raw fresh seafood so she has a large fat reserve. That said, she has to eat soon.

I want and need to move her back to the DT. However, if she cannot see well she will be crashing into all the rocks in the DT which will no be good.

So thats an update. Its a miracle that this fish is still alive. Any suggestions are welcomed. One thing for certain,,,,, Furan 2 works will with Cupramine.
 
To follow up on my previous post, my Scribbled now sits in a 30 gallon with a bio wheel filter and heater....He still appears to be partially blind and has not eaten in over a week. He still has some light film over his eyes but it appears to be abating slowly. I have stopped both the copper and Furan 2 as the fishes' condition has improved markedly.

Does anyone have any insight on the blindness issue???? Is this common after Ick(I have never heard of it)?????? Any suggestions on medications????

Will go to any lenght to save this fish.....

Thanks for the help.
 
Are you still treating copper in the DT? If not, you may want to do Hypsalinity in your display for 6-8 weeks. I believe that will remove the threat from your DT. If your treating with copper then don't.

The trouble now is the copper will leach and absorb due to a number of factors that can really impact your level... might want to test a few times a day.

For the QT. Maybe run some carbon, keep the water quality top notch and start treating with Hypo. Do you have a photo? That can help us better assess. Keep your wits and don't do anything rash, you'll get through this.
 
For the eye, it could be maybe pop-eye or some other infection... Pop-eye (in my experience) can usually clear up with good water quality.
 
The fish remains the same with no improvement in sight and is still not taking food. I even tried using a tweezer and placing a piece of krill right in front of him. He touches it but backs away. I know he has some sight as he flinches if I put something in front of him.

The fish appears in good condition despite not eating. I have noticed a few small white worm like things emerging from his body. They are very small and very few. Perhaps its just me seeing things as they could be nothing at all. My LFS owner , who is very knowledgeable , last nite suggested I treat the QT with Prazi Pro as it could be worms, flukes. I did a mild dose last nite and will monitor. His eyes still have th partial haze/film covering them and I was thinking of re-starting Furan 2 in the event it is Popeye etc.

Just at a loss now as things are not improving and looking for that magic pill.

I will try to get a pic and down load.

Tyhx much for the input.
 
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