Help Identify This Disease
- Thread starter The Reef Addict
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The Reef Addict
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As the title states, I need help identifying this disease. I've had this emporer angel for roughly 5 years, and she has never been sick.
She's currently eating a few bites of mysis/brine shrimp here and there, but is often in hiding. The spots on her sides came and went once before, and now are back and appear to want to stick around.
About a month ago I introduced a couple sea urchins, a watchman goby, and a pistol shrimp... which is likely where any disease would have come from. The goby didnt make it, and the emporer literally swallowed the pistol shrimp whole in about 10 seconds, I DID NOT see that one coming.
Im looking into QT options, but I'm a bit limited on space and I'm afraid time is not on my side.
Thank you all,
She's currently eating a few bites of mysis/brine shrimp here and there, but is often in hiding. The spots on her sides came and went once before, and now are back and appear to want to stick around.
About a month ago I introduced a couple sea urchins, a watchman goby, and a pistol shrimp... which is likely where any disease would have come from. The goby didnt make it, and the emporer literally swallowed the pistol shrimp whole in about 10 seconds, I DID NOT see that one coming.
Im looking into QT options, but I'm a bit limited on space and I'm afraid time is not on my side.
Thank you all,
The Reef Addict
Member
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Our resident fish disease experts @leebca @Dr. Reef @HumbleFish will ask for a video over a minute long, under white light showing both sides of the fish. You can take the video, post it on YouTube and link it here.
The spots on the aquarium wall is preventing a good view of the fish condition.
From your post, I take it you don't quarantine marine life before putting into the display tank. This has become more and more important as the handling of ornamental marine fish becomes less 'responsible' by collectors, suppliers, wholesalers, and fish stores.
There are a variety of flukes and worms that present like this, but it wouldn't explain they going away. Parasites don't go away on their own. Bacterial infections can sometimes appear like this, too. As the fish becomes less resistant due to diet, water quality, crowding, etc. a fish can present like this. I can't say much more than this without: 1) more information on the tank size, residents, and maintenance and, 2) a video as described by griss in the above post.
You were surprised about the food this fish eats. Not too good. You want to study and know as much about the fish you keep, their dietary needs, competitors, and optimum environment. Start with the proper diet: Download then read, the Fish Nutrition document.
The Reef Addict
Member
Good Morning,
I'm sorry it has taken me so long to get this over to you, I hope the clarity is acceptable:
In all honesty I've found QT setups I've run in the past to be hit or miss. Sometimes the struggle to keep another tank in top notch parameters can be more dangerous than a quicker introduction to the display tank. To your point I think your right about the handling of marine life declining over the years, and perhaps that's part of the reason I'm experiencing what I am now. Ich is by far the most common disease I've dealt with, and for the most part I've found healthy fish in healthy environments are able to fight it off on their own. Do you think a Nuvo 40 would be big enough to use as a QT?
Here's some information about my system:
-220 gallon DT
-60 gallon breeder sump tank
-Sock Filtration
-Life reef skimmer
-Temp: 78 degrees
-Salinity: 1.025
-Nitrates: 25-50ppm (on the decline with continued carbon dosing + Cheato growth)
-Nitrites: 0
-Ammonia: 0
Bioload:
-Emperor Angel
-One Clownfish
-Sea Urchins
-Nassarius Snails
A little more background:
The 220G has been setup for a couple months now, it's a "freshly rebuilt" tank. Before this I had a 75G display, same bio-load minus the sea urchins. My nitrates were through the roof. I saved the sand and the rockwork from the 75G, which were both rinsed out before introduction into the new tank. I started carbon dosing a month or two before upgrading tanks and have been steadily upping the dosage as needed. I'm currently up to 36ML of vodka, which seems like a lot for two fish in my opinion. I'm not sure if that information is relevant, but I wanted to disclose it either way.
Please let me know if you need anything else, appreciate the help.
Thank you for the video. Very helpful. I see the 'smudges' you are referring to as spots. This has a characteristic of a parasite, but also, since you are carbon dosing, it may be bacterial.
Carbon dosing is usually used to control phosphates and nitrates. The concept is to re-establish the nitrifying bacteria. However it also has the potential to adversely affect the fish's natural slime coating, thus allowing for bacterial/parasitic attack.
The Angel is breathing on the high end of normal and acting like its gills are irritated. I'd feed the fish additives as indicated in the link I previously provided, for an ill fish. Especially include the beta glucan as suggested in the post. Probably best to stop the carbon dosing and export nitrates through more common means -- water changes, algae in the sump, chemical filtration, etc. Carbon is useful for a few days, then it becomes a home to nitrifying bacteria and then has the potential to remove trace elements from the water (which isn't desireable). Be sure to not overfeed the system.
The 40 gallon is a good QT/Hospital tank for the larger fish. I understand the challenges of quarantine, but it is much better than the risks to the DT. A properly fed fish in an excellent environment does fend off many common ailments, but parasites do still attack even the healthiest of fish.
As for the Emp I'd treat for a bacterial infection. Could even be Vibrio. The treatment is with a fish antibiotic. Like in humans, the choice of antibiotic depends on the specific bacteria causing the infection. Without a proper ID of the bacteria, the choice of fish antibiotic is kind of random. Some antibiotics are best used in a hospital tank, others by dipping, since many antibiotics adversely affect the nitrifying bacteria. But catching the fish for dipping creates more stress on the fish and risks further damage to their slime coating --- their natural defense against bacteria. Speaking in generalities, most marine fish bacterial infections are from Gram Negative bacteria, so those are the antibiotics usually first chosen.
One challenge regarding antibiotics is there is no water test to verify concentration. So measuring the correct amount is important as well as being sure that water changes contain the recommended dosage.
There are several fish antibiotics to choose from in the USA. One of the most advanced antibiotics is Enrofloxacin (Baytril). Enrofloxacin (Baytril) is a fluoroquinolone antibiotic. This is a third-generation antibiotic and is the most advanced antibiotic approved for use in tropical fish. It often begins working in 30 minutes and is a highly recommended antibiotic. It is less harsh for continuous exposure but will likely adversely affect the biological filter, making a bath the better choice for usage. Dosage range is 2.5 - 5 mg/L daily for 7 days; can be used both in a QT or as a 5-hour bath treatment. The tricky thing about Enrofloxacin is the 2.5 - 5 mg/L dosage range is safe for QT use, but the nitrifying bacteria will also take a hit.
If not available, then another choice is to use Mardel Maracyn 2, Metronidazole, Nitrofuracin Green, etc. Two treatments, NeoPlex by Seachem and SulfaPlex can be used, but I consider them weaker but useful since they usually don't adversely affect the nitrifying bacteria. Whichever medication is chosen, follow the directions given on the medication.
The Reef Addict
Member
Leebca,
I really appreciate your detailed response!
I definitely noticed the Emperor's pace of breathing picking up over the last week or so. I also know I've been overfeeding a bit, but that's also due to the limited food intake/stress the fish is under at the moment. I have been dosing trace elements every other day to try and stay on top of depletion.
I have a plan going forward, please let me know if you have any concerns with my approach....
I'm going to buy a 40 gallon breeder to use as a QT tank, I should have it set up and ready to go within the next couple of days. What I would like to do at this point is remove both the clownfish and the emperor angel and QT them both together. This would allow me to leave the DT fallow for a couple of months, and kill off diseases.
Based upon this information would you recommend copper dosing? If so, can copper dosing be used in conjunction with one of the antibiotics you have mentioned? I suppose I could always start with the antibiotic and move on to the copper dosing after what will hopefully be a recovery.
Appreciate the help thus far, thank you!
I really appreciate your detailed response!
I definitely noticed the Emperor's pace of breathing picking up over the last week or so. I also know I've been overfeeding a bit, but that's also due to the limited food intake/stress the fish is under at the moment. I have been dosing trace elements every other day to try and stay on top of depletion.
I have a plan going forward, please let me know if you have any concerns with my approach....
I'm going to buy a 40 gallon breeder to use as a QT tank, I should have it set up and ready to go within the next couple of days. What I would like to do at this point is remove both the clownfish and the emperor angel and QT them both together. This would allow me to leave the DT fallow for a couple of months, and kill off diseases.
Based upon this information would you recommend copper dosing? If so, can copper dosing be used in conjunction with one of the antibiotics you have mentioned? I suppose I could always start with the antibiotic and move on to the copper dosing after what will hopefully be a recovery.
Appreciate the help thus far, thank you!
Maracyn may be used in conjunction with Coppersafe, however Maracyn mostly targets Gram Positive bacteria, like the nitrifying bacteria of the biological filter.
Maracyn 2 which targets mostly Gram Negative bacteria can be used with Coppersafe.
Vibrio anguillarum (Vibrio) - Fish can be treated with ampicillin, chloramphenicol, nalidixic acid derivatives, nitrofurans, sulphonamides and trimethoprim. Drug resistant strains have appeared because of extensive use of these chemicals.
The more medications/chemicals used usually results in an increase of stress on the fish. Speaking in generalities, it's best not to pile on multiple drugs at the same time. I'd begin with the antibiotic followed by a copper treatment if you are sure you want to perform a copper treatment. So your plan would be a good one. Just an FYI: Download then read, the Copper Treatment Procedure document. At this point, I have no reason to recommend a copper treatment, although if I remember correctly somewhere you mentioned having had a problem with Cryptocaryon irritans (Marine Ich) in the past. If the treatment was done properly for this, then I'd put a copper treatment on the back burner.
Just in case you don't know. . .The biological filter of the Hospital tank can be jump started with viable nitrifying bacteria you can buy in a bottle.
Lastly, having the DT going fallow addresses many parasites, but not a bacterial issue. If you suspect Marine Ich, then. . .
Studies have shown that about 45 days of the tank going fishless (fallow) are reliable if you can raise the DT temperature to 27C (80.6F) and there are no dormant Marine Ich in the DT and DT system (assuming corals and invertebrates, if present, can handle this temperature). If you have a FOWLR DT, raise temp to 30C (86F) for 15 days, again providing there are no dormant Marine Ich in the DT or DT system (assuming invertebrates present, if any, can handle this temperature).
Marine Ich can lay dormant in low oxygen (hypoxic) areas and is able to survive longer than the above times. To avoid this, you want to reduce/eliminate areas of low oxygen. These areas include:
1. Thick substrates -- need to be 'disturbed.'
2. Rock sitting on substrate can hide dormant Marine Ich;
3. Canister filters -- need to be broken down;
4. Other non-biological filters/media and chemicals need to be replaced (e.g., carbon, filterfloss),
5. Check that bio filter(s) are not trapping any water; and lastly
6. Rock crevices can hide dormant Marine Ich.
Use high circulation and 'blast' under rocks and into rock crevices -- as much as any corals you have can take. If there is any part of the system which you feel may have low oxygen areas, find and eliminate them.
After removing/eliminating low oxygen areas, then begin the times noted above.
If raising the temperature above 78F is not an option, then go fallow 75 days after removing/eliminating low oxygen areas.
The Reef Addict
Member
Thanks again for another very detailed answer!
Based upon your initial response I have already ordered Metronidazole, which I was able to find and get shipped to me (hopefully) overnight. I already ordered everything else (including filter bacteria) I need as well... just need to pick up a new tank, HOB filter, salt, and a couple other misc items. I'm trying to get this done ASAP but my wife and I are also house sitting and taking care of 7 additional horses..... not fun.
As suggested I'll start with treating the bacterial infection, and move on to the copper treatment from there. What you say about treating for multiple ailments makes sense to me. I read someone claimed to have used Metro and Copper together successfully, though I have no other sources to confirm whether that information is accurate or not.
I'm fairly certain my tank has Ich, but it hasn't been a problem up until now. There are spots on the emperors fins (can faintly be seen in the posted video) that resemble Ich, which I would think could possibly be showing now due to the stress. If all goes well with QT and the DT's fallow stage I'll keep the QT tank setup for future additions - which I plan to have many more!
Fortunately all I have in the DT and the moment are inverts, no corals. I think I could easily bump the temperature up just a tick over 80 degrees and leave the tank fallow for a 2-3 months. Metro products claim to be safe for all marine life including inverts.... should I use metro in the DT in an attempt to remove any possible bacteria strands during the fallow period?
Once again, thanks for the help!
Based upon your initial response I have already ordered Metronidazole, which I was able to find and get shipped to me (hopefully) overnight. I already ordered everything else (including filter bacteria) I need as well... just need to pick up a new tank, HOB filter, salt, and a couple other misc items. I'm trying to get this done ASAP but my wife and I are also house sitting and taking care of 7 additional horses..... not fun.
As suggested I'll start with treating the bacterial infection, and move on to the copper treatment from there. What you say about treating for multiple ailments makes sense to me. I read someone claimed to have used Metro and Copper together successfully, though I have no other sources to confirm whether that information is accurate or not.
I'm fairly certain my tank has Ich, but it hasn't been a problem up until now. There are spots on the emperors fins (can faintly be seen in the posted video) that resemble Ich, which I would think could possibly be showing now due to the stress. If all goes well with QT and the DT's fallow stage I'll keep the QT tank setup for future additions - which I plan to have many more!
Fortunately all I have in the DT and the moment are inverts, no corals. I think I could easily bump the temperature up just a tick over 80 degrees and leave the tank fallow for a 2-3 months. Metro products claim to be safe for all marine life including inverts.... should I use metro in the DT in an attempt to remove any possible bacteria strands during the fallow period?
Once again, thanks for the help!
I would not recommend adding chemicals to the DT. You don't want to 'upset' the established bacteria. Be sure to keep the DT nitrifying bacteria 'happy' by feeding them. I've used ammonium chloride powder dissolved in salt water to feed mine, but you can add fish food and/or seafood and let it 'rot' a few days before removing it, then adding more again -- repeating the process. This is also a means to keep the nitrifying bacteria alive and well in the QT after you're done with it, although most hobbyists prefer a thorough cleaning and drying of the QT system after use. Copper can 'attach' itself to aquarium walls, plastics, and especially the silicone sealant used in glass aquaria.
Also, know that when you setup the HT/QT you can start by using water from the DT. Think of it as a 'water change' on the DT, and add back the used water with freshly prepared salt water. The thought is that, since you are treating in the HT/QT, the water from the DT will be treated, too. I hope you are aware of good HT/QT practices including but not limited to: No substrate (exceptions apply for certain burying fish), ridged plastic tubing (large enough for the largest fish to get inside of to 'hide' yet positioned so you can see the fish), low lighting (ambient room lighting is sufficient), keeping the HT/QT in a separate room from the DT or at least 12 feet away (airborne cross-contamination has been verified) and, being sure everything is cleaned and dry before using the first time. Be sure to maintain separate equipment to avoid cross-contamination. Things that go wrong with QT/HT include but not limited to failing to follow the above listed cautions, cross-contamination, failing to maintain the proper medication concentration and unfortunately, mis-diagnosis.
If you are confident the fish has Cryptocaryon irritans (Marine Ich), then I would switch. First do the copper treatment, then the treatment for bacterial infection. The reason is that the parasite is the worst of the two enemies/problems.
Let us hear how things are going. Good luck!
[PS. Many people think I write too much!]
The Reef Addict
Member
To your original point: I think the fish is mainly suffering from the bacterial infection, and as a result has started displaying signs of ich due to it being present in the tank.... at least that's what I think is going on. The "spotting" has definitely gotten worse over the last couple of days, and so has the appetite... hope I'm not too late.
I should have everything set up this afternoon, and I'm hopeful I can catch the emperor without too much trouble...
Thank you!
I should have everything set up this afternoon, and I'm hopeful I can catch the emperor without too much trouble...
Thank you!
Just FYI: Download then read, the Copper Treatment Procedure document.
