Help my mandarin that sometimes has bladder problem

[seldin]

I have a 55 gallon reef tank for several years with live rock and DSB. I feed my corals and fish frozen food several times a week. Lot's of variety. Copods, mysis, brine shrimp, etc.

My mandarin is not very fat, but definitely eats and I don't see a starvation problem. Had her maybe 1 year or so...

Every once in a while, my mandarin will have trouble staying on the bottom of the tank, and will kind of lose strength and stay next to over flow box, like she is weak. I will then shut off all filters for 1-2 hours and she is fine. Does this every few months...

Have not had a fish die in a long time. In winter temperature is 78-79 and in summer 81-83 degrees. Ph 8.3, salt 1.025, magnesium 1350, calcium 450, nitrates and phosphates 0.

I have a sump and a vortech. I do have some micro bubbles with my Aqua C Remora Pro, but not that much, however, that may be doing the deed. However, I like my skimmer and had it for years, so I don't plan changing it.

I clean out skimmer every couple of months and clean cup once or twice a week.

My setup is a little odd. Next to the top of my tank, I have a drain to outside of house, so my AquaC Remora uses that drain. In addition, my sump was built too tall and has very little access when using my hands. So again, I don't plan on getting rid of what I think is a small micro bubbles issue.

I have chaeto and a phospan reactor in sump with copepods.

I am thinking that maybe mandarin is not eating as well as she should, since I have seen very fat mandarins, however, I see her eat and she does not seem thin. She does look a little plump, but she is not a large mandarin.

I have seen very fat mandarins. She is not that...


PS. In my 55 gallon reef I have a diamond goby, mandarin, scooter blenny ( mandarin family), black wrasse ( I think), large maroon clown, cleaner shrimp, fire shrimp, CUC that is not large.

What do you think is cause of mandarin "staying near top" like having a bladder problem...

Coincidentally, madarin did this today after I cleaned out skimmer very well including the jets...

 

[zachfishman]

Maybe your current regime is too strong. Is there a lot of LR in the DT sufficient enough to produce many areas of very low flow (but not necessarily a dead spot)?

I feed my corals and fish frozen food several times a week.

I'd step it up to at least once a day. In the wild mandarins are picking at the rockwork all day long, as such their physiology is likely not tuned to acquire as much nutrition from acute feedings (like anthias). Also, how's your refugium plumbed into your system (placement, configuration, etc.) - you may be limiting the amount of pods successfully making it into the DT as well.

 

[seldin]

Zack,

My sump was made to tall, so I have very little room. The pvc is as follows.

Water from overflow goes to my sump area into a very large area for the refugium with chaeto and live rock.

In the refugium I see a copepods and baby snails that do not grow large.

After the refugium, the return pump goes directly to my skimmer, so all water from sump goes directly to return pump and then all water goes to skimmer and then back to tank.

I used to have lot's of critters and a lot of smaller snails. I think my wrasse is wiping out my critters.

I would correct myself and say that I feed tank ( frozen food that is target fed to corals), daily and the fish get whatever they want. So tank is really fed once a day. However, I try not to overfeed.

Every couple of months, I take out the live rock in sump and cheato and take a pump and direct it towards bottom of sump, and remove a ton of detris for a water change.
I don't empty the bottom, but do get a ton of crud.

In my tank, I do see microbubbles from my skimmer, but do not know how to get rid of this. Even when I had my skimmer plumbed other ways, the microbubbles still occur. Not too much ( but I could be wrong).

So I guess you are thinking, that the mandarin should eat more.

How about the bladder problem ( where she kind of can't get to bottom of tank). Normally, I would think she was on her last leg. However, just let all pumps off for 1-2 hours and back she goes on her way...

As per flow... I
Any ideas on that....have a lot of live rock and some against back of tank. Not the way I would do it again and also extra live rock in sump/refugium with chaeto.

I could easily say there are some dead spots, however vortech mp40w is set to it's lowest setting. Seems that it is too strong on anything much higher, even for my SPS. The reason is that my sps are on top of tank and my vortech maybe 5-8 inches from top of tank.

Thank you,

 

[zachfishman]

I'd suggest isolating the refugium from the skimmer. I suspect that by forcing any output from the refugium to go through the skimmer you are greatly limiting it's potential to seed your DT. You could power the AquaC skimmer with a separate, in-tank powerhead and direct the sump return pump into the DT. You might have to dial back either the sump return or the MP40 if you're already at a high threshold of flow though.

EDIT: Or you could run the skimmer off a separate pump, but in the sump. This way not all the refugium output would be forced through the skimmer, and you wouldn't increase your already strong current regime. You may even experience a decrease in microbubbles if the skimmer output gets baffled properly.

 

[seldin]

...You could power the AquaC skimmer with a separate, in-tank powerhead and direct the sump return pump into the DT....

...Or you could run the skimmer off a separate pump, but in the sump....

Zack,

Originally, I had the skimmer on a seperate pump inside display tank. I think it more bubbles because the pump was next to the skimmer.

I changed this setup, because I used to have prefilter on the return pump that would get clogged within a couple of weeks, with pods and detris. So I eliminated the prefilter and the return pump has no barrier so it goes directly to skimmer.

The reason, is trying to clean return pump in sump every few weeks was a pain and too much trouble...

One reason, I plumbed the return pump to the skimmer, was way too much detris was going back into tank, once I took away the pre-filter. So now it goes to skimmer...

...You might have to dial back either the sump return or the MP40 if you're already at a high threshold of flow though....

I will try this.

Thank you,

 

[zachfishman]

I changed this setup, because I used to have prefilter on the return pump that would get clogged within a couple of weeks, with pods and detris. So I eliminated the prefilter and the return pump has no barrier so it goes directly to skimmer.

The reason, is trying to clean return pump in sump every few weeks was a pain and too much trouble...

One reason, I plumbed the return pump to the skimmer, was way too much detris was going back into tank, once I took away the pre-filter. So now it goes to skimmer...

Odd that you were getting lots of debris from the sump. Your refugium should not be continuously discharging lots of detritus. I suspect that after a short while the loose detritus would be discharged from the refugium, but then no more (or only very minimal amounts) would flow out. At any rate, with adequate flow any detritus in the DT will be removed by your sump's filter sock anyways.

Or you could split the overflow return 50/50 so that half of the flow bypasses the refugium. I don't suspect you'd compromise the filtering capacity of the chaeto that much, and the decreased flow would definitely restrict the amount of dislodged detritus several fold.

 

[Hoyden]

My mandarin hunts near my overflow because of all of the pods that live in it. She also hunts near any hair algae patches (apparently, hair algae patches are like singles bars for pods) and I have allowed a few to grow for her. Your mandarin may just be hunting - turning off the pumps could cut down on pod travel and so she gives up and goes home. Just a thought.

 

[seldin]

...Odd that you were getting lots of debris from the sump....

In my sump/refugium, I have live rock and a lot of detris collects on bottom even with good flow. It is much better when live rock is not in refugium. However, then, the only thing in there is chaeto, so I like keeping extra live rock in sump. As I said, it does collect detris on the bottom, so I will on an infrequent basis, I will remove live rock and point power head at bottom and vacuum out detris....

I feel that the live rock in refugium helps with critters along with chaeto...

...My mandarin hunts near my overflow because of all of the pods that live in it....

My mandarin, usually hugs the rocks and very rarely swims above the live rock line. When she was near overflow, when she is "sick", she literally is being sucked in with current and is to weak to swim. Then, I will shut pumps off for 1-2 hours, and she will then be back to normal. Obviously, not very good for her.

 

[zachfishman]

When she was near overflow, when she is "sick", she literally is being sucked in with current and is to weak to swim.

That level of lethargy is a very bad sign. How long have you had this mandarin? Wild-caught?

 

[Hoyden]

I think that with the flow path you describe not enough pods are making it to the display tank. Have you seen your mandarin eat anything other than pods (like pellets)? Have you tried supplementing the dt with something like Ocean Pods or Reef Pods? You might also consider making a pod refuge with some rubble and/or chaeto in your DT.

 

[seldin]

...How long have you had this mandarin? Wild-caught?...

I had her over a year. I will say she was wild caught.

...Have you tried supplementing the dt with something like Ocean Pods or Reef Pods?...

Diet for week consists of a large variety of frozen food.

Mysis shrimp, copepods, rod's original formula, daphina, brine shrimp, etc.
I also have a variety of flake food. ( Many varieties)

What I do, is take 2 cubes of frozen food, sometimes add 1 drop of orange juice
and mix with some flake food in salt water. After defrosted, I spot feed my corals and by doing that, food is all over tank. That is usually done daily. I cut back from 3 cubes of frozen to 2 cubes. I was thinking that I am over feeding.

So lot's of varieties of frozen and flake foods. I switch off all foods, so no food is used more than twice a week, if that much. I turn off all pumps and everybody eats for 20 minutes and then turn pumps back on.

... You might also consider making a pod refuge with some rubble and/or chaeto in your DT....

In my display tank, I have about 1 1/4 lb of live rock and 3-4 inch sand bed.
I see the mandarin eating daily, along with all other fish.

I guess your thinking that the mandarin is not eating enough. However, she has a round tummy. However, she is not very large in length.