Help QT tank has Amm spike! Very worried

[JVH]

I had discovered ick on the weekend and originally started to treat with kick ick then after much research found copper to be the quickest way and since I had to VERY sick fish I wanted to act fast and set up a QT on Tuesday.

Started with 80% tank water fish were in and add a few gallon of fresh mixed SW. (matching temp, ph, salinity) My thinking was its like doing a water change so a little additional new sw mix would be ok but maybe that's the problem?
Regardless, I now have ammonia which I did hear it can happen in a QT...

WHAT I HAVE

20g long with few PVC pieces (see pic in my Help wit ick thread)
HOB filter
small PH
heater--temp at 78 (like in DT)
NO Skimmer NO carbon in hob

MY NUMBERS

salinity 1.024 (like in DT)
ph 8.0 appx (like in DT)
Ni 0
NA 20ppm
AMMONIA .25 (green on the API test kit)my test kit under normal conditions shows pale yellow dark yellow to bordering green last night (used Prime) today green!

TREATMENT
When I set up the Qt I added the copper treatment according to directions
Nite Out 2 for bacteria (recommended by another reefer since no rock was coming over to QT)
and I used Prime on the initial set up..

PROBLEM

Today AMMONIA! I already lost 2 fish prior the copper treatment since ick was so bad I don't want to loose anymore. I'M VERY WORRIED...
I MUST go to work so I can't further address this until 5pm..
SO
I gave another dose of Nite out since it says every other day.. (which would be tonight) and I did a dose of prime. (again)
I don't want to mess up the meds in the tank but I think I need to do a WC tonight! (then add meds)

What % WC would you recommend?
Fish are still STRESSED and me too) from the transition and now with ammonia I want to just leave them be a few days but I'm afraid for there lives!

Pease someone let me know what I can do to get this under control asap that wont stress them out further....since that's what started this whole mess..
also added garlic to food and only feeding flake now since they were not eating and that was a favorite. Will try garlic soaked Mysis later

And finally, is it bad to add a rock from DT to help out? or is that truly a NO,NO

Sorry this is long, wanted to get it all the info needed..
THANK YOU for taking he time to read
Judith

 

[Newsmyrna80]

Ok, much to address:

I had discovered ick on the weekend and originally started to treat with kick ick then after much research found copper to be the quickest way and since I had to VERY sick fish I wanted to act fast and set up a QT on Tuesday.

Started with 80% tank water fish were in and add a few gallon of fresh mixed SW. (matching temp, ph, salinity) ]Should not have used contaminated water to set up a new QT.My thinking was its like doing a water change so a little additional new sw mix would be ok but maybe that's the problem?
Regardless, I now have ammonia which I did hear it can happen in a QT...It does and is common with using copper.

WHAT I HAVE

20g long with few PVC pieces (see pic in my Help wit ick thread)
HOB filter
small PH
heater--temp at 78 (like in DT)
NO Skimmer NO carbon in hob

MY NUMBERS

salinity 1.024 (like in DT)
ph 8.0 appx (like in DT)
Ni 0
NA 20ppm
AMMONIA .25 (green on the API test kit)my test kit under normal conditions shows pale yellow dark yellow to bordering green last night (used Prime) today green!

TREATMENT
When I set up the Qt I added the copper treatment according to directions
Nite Out 2 for bacteria (recommended by another reefer since no rock was coming over to QT)
and I used Prime on the initial set up..Can't use Prime or ammonia lock/detoxifier with copper

PROBLEM

Today AMMONIA! I already lost 2 fish prior the copper treatment since ick was so bad I don't want to loose anymore. I'M VERY WORRIED...how long have the fish been showing signs of ich. Are you sure it's ich?
I MUST go to work so I can't further address this until 5pm..
SO
I gave another dose of Nite out since it says every other day.. (which would be tonight) and I did a dose of prime. (again) I've not used/heard of Nite Out. Bio Spira and Dr. Tim's have a pretty good reputation.
I don't want to mess up the meds in the tank but I think I need to do a WC tonight! (then add meds) The only way to control ammonia in a new QT while using copper is with water changes

What % WC would you recommend?
Fish are still STRESSED and me too) from the transition and now with ammonia I want to just leave them be a few days but I'm afraid for there lives!

Pease someone let me know what I can do to get this under control asap that wont stress them out further....since that's what started this whole mess..
also added garlic to food and only feeding flake now since they were not eating and that was a favorite. Will try garlic soaked Mysis laterGarlic does nothing for ich.

And finally, is it bad to add a rock from DT to help out? or is that truly a NO,NO
Not if you are using copper
Sorry this is long, wanted to get it all the info needed..
THANK YOU for taking he time to read
Judith

My advice is to do large water changes If the new water is perfectly matched to what the QT water is then I would do 100%. Otherwise do several large water changes. The ammonia will painfully kill them. How many fish do you have? Have you looked in to tank transfer? Did you read the stickies on ich and its' treatments?

 

[JVH]

Ok, much to address:


My advice is to do large water changes If the new water is perfectly matched to what the QT water is then I would do 100%. Otherwise do several large water changes. The ammonia will painfully kill them. How many fish do you have? Have you looked in to tank transfer? Did you read the stickies on ich and its' treatments?

Now someone else told me the api tests are not accurate with copper treatments. UGH! I have 4 fish left.. Also I added the nite out and prime now someone told me that make the copper increase... Im at a loss! I get different information from all kinds of experienced reefers...
I will do a large water change later and I don't even know what else to do at this point!!

 

[snorvich]

Copper and Prime do not mix. Copper is not the quickest treatment as it should be used for four weeks as a minimum; tank transfer is the quickest. Please define what you mean by experienced reefers . . . Newsmyrna80 is highly qualified.

 

[JVH]

Copper and Prime do not mix. Copper is not the quickest treatment as it should be used for four weeks as a minimum; tank transfer is the quickest. Please define what you mean by experienced reefers . . . Newsmyrna80 is highly qualified.

I was NOT referring to Newsmyrna80 as not qualified or experienced...
I took advice from someone else who is experienced and am getting different advice so I came here for help and was surprised to find out I'm doing something that can now possible hurt my fish and I was just explaining.
I wasn't referring to ANYONE as not being qualified.. I was saying I am getting lots of different advice and not all is the same it can be confusing and deadly to my fish which I m only learning about now...I'm extremely frustrated.

As Newsmyrna80 said I will be doing very large water change tonight...

 

[GroktheCube]

Prime + copper = dead fish.

If you have enough spare equipment, using TTM to treat the ich while a longer term QT to sit out the 72 day fallow period cycles might be the best bet.

 

[ThRoewer]

Copper is the last I would use to treat Cryptocaryon and especially not for very sick fish as it is a immune suppressant toxin.

TTM at reduced salinity or hyposaline condition is the fastest and best suited way to clean up fish with a heavy Cryptocaryon infection.

 

[bonds22]

fish

fish

k water fish were in and add a few gallon of fresh mixed SW. (matching temp, ph, salinity) My thinking was its like doing a water change so a little additional new sw mix would be ok but maybe that's the problem?
Regardless, I now hav

 

[Mishri]

just my two cents. .25 isn't going to kill your fish. (Assuming the reading is accurate). 1.0ppm or higher(I've had fish in 2.0ppm that survived) will. It's something to be concerned about, and water changes are in order. But I wouldn't panic yet.

 

[horseplay]

I would do TTM then borrow a piece of rock from a fellow reefer to cycle a QT (HOB sponge + rocks). Since you have to fallow your DT for 72 days. Ammonia is a real concern and it is not possible to do massive water change daily and you still have to feed the fish.

 

[das75]

small QT = quick rise in ammonia as you found out.

When started this hobby, got ich so fish into a QT and had losses and leaning more towards the NH3 over the ich for deaths.

Plan for daily testing and water changes.

 

[julie180]

I would do TTM then borrow a piece of rock from a fellow reefer to cycle a QT (HOB sponge + rocks). Since you have to fallow your DT for 72 days. Ammonia is a real concern and it is not possible to do massive water change daily and you still have to feed the fish.

This is not a good idea. How would you know for certain the rock is not contaminated! If you do TTM, you can use Prime, just know that the API test will not be accurate. It reads both free and toxic ammonia. Get a Seachem ammonia test kit and their ammonia badge.

 

[horseplay]

This is not a good idea. How would you know for certain the rock is not contaminated! If you do TTM, you can use Prime, just know that the API test will not be accurate. It reads both free and toxic ammonia. Get a Seachem ammonia test kit and their ammonia badge.

Agree to disagree. Ammonia must be dealt with and prime should only be used to detox ammonia for a short period of time. Assuming the rock will be coming from healthy tank and QT accordingly is what I would do. Without bacteria introduced a barren tank will take a long time to cycle.