HELP! Tank Dying Slowly

[aquamn1999]

sounds like a big fish load.

Carbon dosing take time to gt to the correct lvl.

you need to reduce your nitrates

 

[Rodmad]

Tank

Tank

Brother sounds like your stumped by that tank, I know the feeling, sorry to hear. Such an awesome hobby but yet can seem so complicated at times thanks to poor lrs advice and their desire to sell product.

Ive read the feedback your getting on this post and advise is good but I personally like to get to the root of the problem rather than trying to put a bandaid on it.

Why are your nitrates so high? How old is your system? How long have you battled with nigh nitrates? How did you clean your rocks (considering its a new system)? Did u add or used old sand when you first set it up? Have you stirred up your sand for any reason? How much do you feed your fish and corals? Are you dosing amino acids?

Bdw, I wanted to also mention the importance of stable parameters in your system. Seems like they fluctuate quite a bit in your system even those po4 levels.

You seem to add and remove ferric oxide which will lower them but they rise on you as it wears off. This level also needs to be stable and as close to .01 as possible. With nitrates as high as yours you shouldn't have po4 as nitrates 'eats' po4 for lack of a better word lol. I know why your po4 levels are high and it's because your doing water changes with water that's other than 0 tds. Also check your rodi storage tank and measure the tds in that water as storage tanks (brute tanks) may leach tds into your perfect 0 tds water.

Also, I would stop all chemical additions incl ferric oxide, carbon (which you shouldn't need considering the water changes your currently performing), vodka dosing, furan, ect.... only cal, alk, mag.

Also, I would send for a triton-lab.de water test to verify for metal content in your water and other things.

On your alk, I would try to lower it closer to 8 and keep it stable there. Your current cal to alk ratio if off. At 9.5 alk you should be at 430 cal which means that your mag is too low at 1300. It should be closer to 1400 to avoid precipitation of alk/cal.

GL and continue replying.

Bdw, is that all the coral you have in your tank?

 

[hobbzz]

Sounds like you were dosing vodka incorrectly. Here is the correct way to do it reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/ . There are nice tables middle of the page. When you set up your tank again, what did you use for rock and sand?

 

[Swirlygig]

Sounds like you have a lot of nice equipment. While probably not necessary a fast way to NO3 / PO4 reduction is a nitrate reactor. I have a GEO NR818 on my 150, I have a lot of fish, my family likes to over feed and I like corals. My nitrates kept rising and I tried biopellets, Marinepure blocks all worked but could not outpace the NO3. Nitrate reactors are not for everyone as you have to closely monitor output (every day for the 1st
30 days IMHO) and at least weekly after if not more often, but, they do allow some mistakes on feeding and housekeeping.

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They also consume ALK...If not careful you could drop you ALK like a rock. I loved mine. Worked great.

 

[1jwampler]

My ALK is high 11s I have a second reactor with aragonite after the 818.


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[Horace]

I notice u said u use a grounding probe. You should test for leaking current. I also had a grounding probe in my last tank and it hid the fact that I had a power head leaking current in the tank. I now believe it was the cause of the slow demise of my last SPS tank. Definitely rule this out!

Also u said fresh carbon every 3 months....that's WAY too long. Carbon lasts maybe 2-3 weeks...a month tops.

Also have heard about cucumbers wiping out tanks. Def run more carbon.

Finally have a Triton test done to try to identify any other possible water parameter out of whack.

While 40 to 60 no3 is def high, it's NOT the cause.....

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[Bacchus_fl]

I noticed you mentioned the death of your sea cucumbers. I think this may have caused your problems. When sea cucumbers die certain species can release a toxin. If this happened (there may be no way of knowing) I'd do some big WC's until things start to stabilize. Even if this didn't happen in your case, their deaths may have caused an ammonia spike which affected your corals. I would test for ammonia and nitrites and do big WC's if you find these in your water.
Can you list the types of sea cucumbers you had, their size and number?

I had two yellows and they were pretty small. They died about 6 months ago and I have done many water changes since then. Also my fish have never been stressed, only my corals so I dont think ammonia is the issue.

 

[Bacchus_fl]

Are you feeding flake food? I agree with the others. Get your NItrates down below 20ppm

Do less water volume. More frequent water changes. You could aim for 100% water change in the amount of a 10 day period, so every day you could change 18 gallons. Or 36G every 2 days , that should remove allot of the NO3.

Next you have to find the source of the NO3" heavy bio load, over feeding, lots can cause it.

With good house keeping, and basic water changes to stabilize and remove the NO3 , I wouldn't be surprised if you seen it turn around in the next few weeks

RedSea also makes NO3po4x , to help with keeping NO3 low by dosing

Anytime you have a sea cucumber die, it's good to do water changes immediately in case it released any toxins. I had one die, but I removed it early enough.

Not feeding flake food. Just nori and pellets. The feeder dumps into a feeding ring to reduce waste and my carpet anemone directly below so there is no waste between it, inverts and the fish.

Sounds like you have a lot of nice equipment. While probably not necessary a fast way to NO3 / PO4 reduction is a nitrate reactor. I have a GEO NR818 on my 150, I have a lot of fish, my family likes to over feed and I like corals. My nitrates kept rising and I tried biopellets, Marinepure blocks all worked but could not outpace the NO3. Nitrate reactors are not for everyone as you have to closely monitor output (every day for the 1st
30 days IMHO) and at least weekly after if not more often, but, they do allow some mistakes on feeding and housekeeping.

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I travel allot so having something that requires daily attention would not work for me unfortunately.

Smaller more frequent WC are no where near as effective as large WC when removing nitrates. Rule of thumb is the % of water removed is equivalent to % of nitrate removed. If you have 100 gal and 50ppm nitrate and do 2 50% water change then you are "theoretically" down to 12.5ppm nitrate. If you do a series of 10% WC then you drop from 50 to 45 to 40.5 to 36.45 and on and on. I recommend you use the LFS because they can do this rapidly.

I did a 100G water change this morning. Nitrates are still testing between 25-50 on my salifert kit. What kit would you recommend to give me more specificity and accuracy?

Is this a metal probe that's submerged in aquarium?

Yes it is a small metal probe.

Brother sounds like your stumped by that tank, I know the feeling, sorry to hear. Such an awesome hobby but yet can seem so complicated at times thanks to poor lrs advice and their desire to sell product.

Ive read the feedback your getting on this post and advise is good but I personally like to get to the root of the problem rather than trying to put a bandaid on it.

Why are your nitrates so high? How old is your system? How long have you battled with nigh nitrates? How did you clean your rocks (considering its a new system)? Did u add or used old sand when you first set it up? Have you stirred up your sand for any reason? How much do you feed your fish and corals? Are you dosing amino acids?

Bdw, I wanted to also mention the importance of stable parameters in your system. Seems like they fluctuate quite a bit in your system even those po4 levels.

You seem to add and remove ferric oxide which will lower them but they rise on you as it wears off. This level also needs to be stable and as close to .01 as possible. With nitrates as high as yours you shouldn't have po4 as nitrates 'eats' po4 for lack of a better word lol. I know why your po4 levels are high and it's because your doing water changes with water that's other than 0 tds. Also check your rodi storage tank and measure the tds in that water as storage tanks (brute tanks) may leach tds into your perfect 0 tds water.

Also, I would stop all chemical additions incl ferric oxide, carbon (which you shouldn't need considering the water changes your currently performing), vodka dosing, furan, ect.... only cal, alk, mag.

Also, I would send for a triton-lab.de water test to verify for metal content in your water and other things.

On your alk, I would try to lower it closer to 8 and keep it stable there. Your current cal to alk ratio if off. At 9.5 alk you should be at 430 cal which means that your mag is too low at 1300. It should be closer to 1400 to avoid precipitation of alk/cal.

GL and continue replying.

Bdw, is that all the coral you have in your tank?

This incarnation of the tank is about 15 months old. I have always gotten a reading of between 25-50 on my salifert kit so I have had "high nitrates" since just after I set it up. I need a better kit to tell me exactly or at least a tighter range of where my Trates are. To clean my rocks I just scrubbed and swished them several times in new salt water before adding them to the tank. I used all new Carbisea live sand. I feed a small amount of pellets and 1 half sheet of nori a day. I am also dosing amino acids through a product called Automatic Amino Acid Concentrate by korallen-zucht.

I just removed the GFO in order to add the biopellets since my PO4 has always read 0 or every once in awhile it would have have the slightest tint of blue so I would call it .03 I never have seen a result as high as the .5 that the LFS had with their red sea kits. Maybe I need to start using a more accurate PO4 kit as well.

I replaced all filters and membrane in my RODI system and am now getting a 0 TDS reading. My storage tank is 4 gallons and about 10 years old so maybe it needs to be replaced as well.

I will look into triton, good idea. I will also reduce my alk to around 8.

These are not the only coral I have in my tank but they are the ones that are still alive that look the worst.

Sounds like you were dosing vodka incorrectly. Here is the correct way to do it reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/ . There are nice tables middle of the page. When you set up your tank again, what did you use for rock and sand?

Those were the exact directs/ tables I followed. I had dosed vodka once in the past with great success which is why I wanted to try it again. I dont believe the vodka was causing the problem but it definitely wasnt helping so I stopped just in case. I used carbisea live sand and some LR i bought from another hobbyist,I cleaned and rinsed it the best I could.

I notice u said u use a grounding probe. You should test for leaking current. I also had a grounding probe in my last tank and it hid the fact that I had a power head leaking current in the tank. I now believe it was the cause of the slow demise of my last SPS tank. Definitely rule this out!

Also u said fresh carbon every 3 months....that's WAY too long. Carbon lasts maybe 2-3 weeks...a month tops.

Also have heard about cucumbers wiping out tanks. Def run more carbon.

Finally have a Triton test done to try to identify any other possible water parameter out of whack.

While 40 to 60 no3 is def high, it's NOT the cause.....

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How do I test for stray current?

Am going to send for Triton test today.


THANK YOU GUYS!!! I really appreciate all the advice. Sorry I didnt respond sooner but was out with the family for the holiday. Hope everybody had a fun and safe 4th!

 

[Bacchus_fl]

How do I use Triton labs? That link is for their website and is in german with no option to "purchase"

 

[iLLwiLL]

Hey man, sorry to hear about all the issues on that amazing setup you got. I'm off all day Thursday, if you want I can swing by some test kits and a fresh set of eyes to try and figure out what's going on.

 

[eg8r210]

How do I use Triton labs? That link is for their website and is in german with no option to "purchase"

I haven't been to Living Reef in probably a year but they used to carry the Triton test kits. You purchase the test kit from them, take it home and fill the bottles per the directions. Write down your code from the bottles, and then set up an account online with Triton. Mail off the test samples in the bag you received from Living Reef. In a week or two you log in to the Triton website and view your results.

 

[Horace]

You can test for stray voltage by putting a neg probe in the ground of an outlet and the positive in the tank. Use a low voltage setting (I would try both AC and DC to be sure) Remove the grounding probe first though.

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[eg8r210]

You probably need to borrow another test kit and see if your kit is even accurate. Just for giggles, go ahead and test your newly mixed saltwater for no3 and po4.

 

[Blue spot]

Hi bacchus, what percentage of your corals are showing these sort of signs ? I am just thinking that if you are seeing a high number of corals dying this will be adding to your high phos and nitrate problems and you won't keep up with the decay , I always think take the coral out and smell it , you'll know if it's past saving . A little harsh I know but you can get into a viscous cycle , more decay causing more corals to die overloading the tank. Hope things sort out for you soon.

 

[Bacchus_fl]

Hey man, sorry to hear about all the issues on that amazing setup you got. I'm off all day Thursday, if you want I can swing by some test kits and a fresh set of eyes to try and figure out what's going on.

Hey Will, Ill take all the help I can get. Ill be around all day on Thursday working from home so just hit me up. The variance in the test is confusing the situation even worse for me. 386-747-0281

I haven't been to Living Reef in probably a year but they used to carry the Triton test kits. You purchase the test kit from them, take it home and fill the bottles per the directions. Write down your code from the bottles, and then set up an account online with Triton. Mail off the test samples in the bag you received from Living Reef. In a week or two you log in to the Triton website and view your results.

Thanks Ed! I will swing by there and grab one of their kits as soon as I can. Ill let you know the results once I have them.

You can test for stray voltage by putting a neg probe in the ground of an outlet and the positive in the tank. Use a low voltage setting (I would try both AC and DC to be sure) Remove the grounding probe first though.

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I'm sure this is very simple but Im not sure I completely understand. Use my voltometer? put ground probe into socket and pos probe into water? what setting should i use and what would i be looking for? Ill try to youtube this as well.

You probably need to borrow another test kit and see if your kit is even accurate. Just for giggles, go ahead and test your newly mixed saltwater for no3 and po4.

I have tested in the past and got near 0 on both. All my kits are brand new (within the last 3-6 months so they are far from expired but there is a big difference between my readings and the reading from the LFS when they visited. I have taken my water to several LFS over the year and always got a good report card but they use those Dr. Aquarium or whatever they are called kits which I have never found to be accurate. Thought I could trust my saliferts but maybe not

Hi bacchus, what percentage of your corals are showing these sort of signs ? I am just thinking that if you are seeing a high number of corals dying this will be adding to your high phos and nitrate problems and you won't keep up with the decay , I always think take the coral out and smell it , you'll know if it's past saving . A little harsh I know but you can get into a viscous cycle , more decay causing more corals to die overloading the tank. Hope things sort out for you soon.

not all but those are the biggest and most noticable. others just arent growing or like my duncans and leathers are just closed up.

 

[eg8r210]

I would think Salifert's are definitely a trustworthy test. When you go to Living Reef bring some water and let Luke test it. They use a mix between Salifert and Hanna tests and it will be good to get a second opinion on the water.

 

[Horace]

Yes, use a volt meter. And do put the black lead into the ground plug in the wall. Use the lowest VAC and the VDC settings. If you have any voltage, start unplugging things until you find the cause. If it's just a fraction of a volt you are prob ok. More than that and I would probably replace whatever is causing it

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[Saltine]

There are a ton of posts debating voltage in a reef tank, I highly doubt that is your issue here as no one has proven any amount of voltage has hurt corals. Stray current yes, stray voltage no. Sticking a voltmeter in the tank isn't going to tell you much.

Most electricians recommend no grounding probe and consider it more dangerous than helpful.

I'm no expert, just someone who has stray voltage and read about it for a day. Just saying do some searching, ton of posts on it, but I don't think this is your issue.

GL
Salt

 

[steelcaveman]

Alk is too high, especially if running pellets. 7.8 - 8.0. Don't run feric oxide with pellets. Cut back on lights. The nitrate and phosphate issue can be a pain, but I doubt that it causing your coral issues. A large water change with a salt like Tropic Marin, Brightwell or Oceanic may help. Prodibio, Koralin and Dr. Tim's make some great products that might help with the nitrate and phosphate. Feeding less helps too. Good luck.

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[Horace]

There are a ton of posts debating voltage in a reef tank, I highly doubt that is your issue here as no one has proven any amount of voltage has hurt corals. Stray current yes, stray voltage no. Sticking a voltmeter in the tank isn't going to tell you much.

Most electricians recommend no grounding probe and consider it more dangerous than helpful.

I'm no expert, just someone who has stray voltage and read about it for a day. Just saying do some searching, ton of posts on it, but I don't think this is your issue.

GL
Salt

Stray voltage is dangerous.....period. Regardless if you feel it's dangerous to corals or not.

If you have stray voltage, that indicates something is introducing it to the tank...if you become grounded, you are going to get your *** zapped. If you have stray voltage and ignore it, you deserve a Darwin award.

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