Help with QT and Ich (treatment)

[Spork3245]

Hey everyone,

Got an ich outbreak in my 90 gallon DT due to bad advice on not QT-ing a new cleaner goby. Bought a 40 gallon breeder during the petco sale and am planning on attempting to put all of my fish in there for 10 weeks as well as treat them.

My fish are...
One Spot Foxface
Flame Angel
Ocellaris Clowns
Fairy Wrasse (red headed solon)
Diamond Goby
Neon Cleaner Goby
Obviously inverts, CUC and corals will remain in the DT during the "fallow" period

I plan on putting a *lot* of PVC piping into the tank to help prevent any aggression during the 10 weeks, especially from the Flame Angel and I've heard of Rabbitfish getting "claustrophobic" and hurting tank mates when kept in too small a tank for too long. I did buy an extra 10 gallon tank, just in case I need to pull a fish from the 40 breeder.

Anyway, I keep going back-and-forth with how I should treat the fish while they are QT'd. I originally planned on doing hypo-salinity, but as a semi-newb I am concerned with being able to keep the water at *EXACTLY* 1.009 for 6 weeks, however I am also concerned with treating via medication as Flame Angel's are known to be sensitive to copper though I've heard Flame Angels are often fine with cupramine... So, that leaves prazipro...?
Thoughts?
Also, will my Diamond Goby be okay in a bare-bottom QT? He eats pellets and prepared/frozen food as well as flakes but he really, really, likes to dig and sift so I'm a little concerned.

Thanks in advance!

 

[HumbleFish]

I wouldn't do hypo - Cupramine is probably your best bet. Just ramp it up very slowly (5-7 days), and monitor the Flame Angel carefully. You may have to do tank transfer on the Flame if he stops eating. You can do Prazi on all the fish afterwards.

If it makes you feel better, put a small amount of sand in a pyrex bowl for the goby.

 

[HPark]

Hey,

I'm going through the same thing essentially. I opted to use the tank transfer method. There's a lot of good info on it in this thread - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1996525

A little bit of a hassle but I feel more confident that it completely eliminates ich while copper/hypo has always seemed a little bit like guess work to me.

You would still need the 40g to wait out the DT as it goes fallow.

Last thing, prazipro from what I gather is used to treat internal parasites....pretty sure it does nothing to Ich.

Good luck.

 

[HumbleFish]

Last thing, prazipro from what I gather is used to treat internal parasites....pretty sure it does nothing to Ich.

Correct. Prazi only treats internal; Ich is an external parasite, and you would need to treat with copper or tank transfer for that.

Prazi is a good med to use before or after Ich treatment. But it in no way replaces it.

 

[Spork3245]

Yea, I was just reading some stuff a moment ago and realized that I was mistaken on using prazipro as an alternative treatment.
I did some reading and it seems like Flame Angels are usually good with Seachem Cupramine due to its more-gentle nature as opposed to some other copper products.

Tank Transfer isn't really possible for me due to limited funds at the moment, this happened at a bad time, if it was in a month or two it wouldn't be as stressful on me. I simply wouldn't be able to buy multiple tanks/containers and multiple heaters + filters ATM, plus I simply won't have the time to clean/sterilize a tank every 2-3 days, not to mention moving the fish.

 

[Spar]

Tank Transfer isn't really possible for me due to limited funds at the moment, this happened at a bad time, if it was in a month or two it wouldn't be as stressful on me. I simply wouldn't be able to buy multiple tanks/containers and multiple heaters + filters ATM, plus I simply won't have the time to clean/sterilize a tank every 2-3 days, not to mention moving the fish.

Completely understandable of financial situations, but also make sure you aren't overthinking what it takes for the tank transfer method (TTM). You could use just 5 gallon Home Depot buckets as the 'tank' ($5/ea, need 2 of them). and then all you need is an airpump ($10), air tubing ($5), a few airstones (<$10 for 4-5 of them). Salt adds a tiny bit of cost to that, but regardless you are looking at $35 for all the equipment (one-time fixed cost), and then only a little cost each time thereafter for the salt. I just use DT water though, and then refill my DT with new salt, so treat it as part of a routine water change, so really doesn't cost me anything additional for the salt.

It is for sure time-consuming. I wake up 30 minutes early each day I need to do a transfer. I also don't sterilize; I just rinse with tap water, rub down with paper towels and let air dry. When I travel for work, my wife has to do it, which means she owns me with whatever house work she wants done later... that is the trust cost of TTM :wildone:

 

[snorvich]

Lot of good advice above. (btw, You do not need much for tank transfer)

 

[Spork3245]

Completely understandable of financial situations, but also make sure you aren't overthinking what it takes for the tank transfer method (TTM). You could use just 5 gallon Home Depot buckets as the 'tank' ($5/ea, need 2 of them). and then all you need is an airpump ($10), air tubing ($5), a few airstones (<$10 for 4-5 of them). Salt adds a tiny bit of cost to that, but regardless you are looking at $35 for all the equipment (one-time fixed cost), and then only a little cost each time thereafter for the salt. I just use DT water though, and then refill my DT with new salt, so treat it as part of a routine water change, so really doesn't cost me anything additional for the salt.

It is for sure time-consuming. I wake up 30 minutes early each day I need to do a transfer. I also don't sterilize; I just rinse with tap water, rub down with paper towels and let air dry. When I travel for work, my wife has to do it, which means she owns me with whatever house work she wants done later... that is the trust cost of TTM :wildone:

Would all of my fish be okay in a 5 gallon bucket though? Do they need a place to hide (ie: pvc pipes/elbows)? I do have two spare buckets which I haven't used for anything yet...

One Spot Foxface
Flame Angel
Ocellaris Clowns
Fairy Wrasse (red headed solon)
Diamond Goby
Neon Cleaner Goby

I actually have 3 oc. clowns btw... Long story short, basically got bad advice from an LFS when I started adding livestock (all bought and placed in tank at same time), however they've been together for over a year now and it seems as though one is definitely the "boss" (female), another is definitely the male and the third seems to stay slightly smaller (unsexed?) and they all get along. I don't know if this is how groups live together in the wild or if something bad will definitely happen in the future, but I've been monitoring them and am fully prepared to pull one if I ever see bullying (they all seem to do that "shaking submit dance" thing to the one larger on occasions).

BTW - I already ordered all the filters and what-not for my 40 gallon breeder QT from amazon last night, but I'd need that stuff anyway since I'll have to keep my fish in there until the 90 gallon DT has been fallow for 10-11 weeks
Got a 125watt jager heater, an Aquaclear 70 filter + ceramic media for it, a hydor koralia 750-850gph power head, cupramine and prime (so I don't have to make/waste RO/DI for water changes in the QT)

 

[snorvich]

I might go with 2 buckets times 2 with those fish and put the foxface in a different bucket than the flame angel.

 

[Spar]

also keep in mind you could buy an air pump that has multiple air outputs for just a few bucks more. the air tubing will cover both buckets. just mentioning so you dont buy 2 airpumps.

realized i left off the cost of heaters in my price estimate above.... been a while since I have priced these at pet stores. but will add a bit of price, especially if you do 2 separate containers/buckets as you will need 4 heaters. you will want as low wattage as you can get (25-50w).

 

[MrTuskfish]

Correct. Prazi only treats internal; Ich is an external parasite, and you would need to treat with copper or tank transfer for that.

Prazi is a good med to use before or after Ich treatment. But it in no way replaces it.

Maybe misspoken.
PP is a wormer. It will kill both internal and external worms, like flukes (and feather dusters). It will not kill protozoan parasites; like ich, oodinium, etc.

 

[HumbleFish]

Maybe misspoken.
PP is a wormer. It will kill both internal and external worms, like flukes (and feather dusters). It will not kill protozoan parasites; like ich, oodinium, etc.

Yeah, for some reason I always forget about flukes (external worms). :headwally:

 

[MrTuskfish]

Yeah, for some reason I always forget about flukes (external worms). :headwally:

Don't worry; your stellar reputation on this forum is still intact.

 

[Spork3245]

Thanks for the help and advice so far everyone! I honestly do appreciate it!

Okay, so do I use PVC piping in the 5 gallon buckets? I'm more considering this route than I previously was. I suppose I'll need 4 air-stones in addition to 4 heaters? In regards to sterilization of the equipment + buckets, I don't feel comfortable using a bleach solution as I would be concerned for my fish if I missed even a tiny drop of it during the 4-5 tank transfers; Would it make sense to fill the buckets (leaving equipment in) with tap (fresh)water for a day and then drying, or would the ich be able to survive in fresh water?
Should I keep the bucket's tops on (loosely) so the fish do not jump or will they need light?

Also, I'm thinking I'll put the foxface in with the 3 clowns, cleaner goby and wrasse, the flame angel will go with the diamond goby since they usually don't interact (though my foxface will chase the diamond goby sometimes for no apparent reason...?). Does that sound "safe" or should I configure which fish will be sharing a bucket differently? I'm obviously concerned about the Foxface "freaking out" and attempting to sting and kill his "bucket-mates".

I like the idea of simply doing 10 gallon water changes (I normally do 15-17 gallon WCs) and using the "waste water" from my DT as water for the fish. However, would this be futile since my DT is infected with ich?

 

[HumbleFish]

Okay, so do I use PVC piping in the 5 gallon buckets? I'm more considering this route than I previously was. I suppose I'll need 4 air-stones in addition to 4 heaters? In regards to sterilization of the equipment + buckets, I don't feel comfortable using a bleach solution as I would be concerned for my fish if I missed even a tiny drop of it during the 4-5 tank transfers; Would it make sense to fill the buckets (leaving equipment in) with tap (fresh)water for a day and then drying, or would the ich be able to survive in fresh water?
Should I keep the bucket's tops on (loosely) so the fish do not jump or will they need light?

PVC elbows usually cuts down on aggression; so yes, I would use them in the buckets. When I do TT I use vinegar to clean, rinse and then let air dry thoroughly. You really need the full three days to air dry thoroughly, so don't procrastinate cleaning the buckets. You also can use a hair dryer to make it dry faster. I would use egg crate on top of each bucket to prevent the fish from jumping out. Wrap the egg crate in mesh (I use wedding tulle), and then tie it to the egg crate using fishing line to keep the smaller fish from jumping out.

Also, I'm thinking I'll put the foxface in with the 3 clowns, cleaner goby and wrasse, the flame angel will go with the diamond goby since they usually don't interact (though my foxface will chase the diamond goby sometimes for no apparent reason...?). Does that sound "safe" or should I configure which fish will be sharing a bucket differently? I'm obviously concerned about the Foxface "freaking out" and attempting to sting and kill his "bucket-mates".

I would probably put the foxface and wrasse in their own bucket. So, you'd be running 3 buckets total.

I like the idea of simply doing 10 gallon water changes (I normally do 15-17 gallon WCs) and using the "waste water" from my DT as water for the fish. However, would this be futile since my DT is infected with ich?

You can do this for the first transfer, but after that it needs to be newly mixed s/w as the parasites are also present in your DT and DT water.

 

[Spork3245]

PVC elbows usually cuts down on aggression; so yes, I would use them in the buckets. When I do TT I use vinegar to clean, rinse and then let air dry thoroughly. You really need the full three days to air dry thoroughly, so don't procrastinate cleaning the buckets. You also can use a hair dryer to make it dry faster. I would use egg crate on top of each bucket to prevent the fish from jumping out. Wrap the egg crate in mesh (I use wedding tulle), and then tie it to the egg crate using fishing line to keep the smaller fish from jumping out.



I would probably put the foxface and wrasse in their own bucket. So, you'd be running 3 buckets total.



You can do this for the first transfer, but after that it needs to be newly mixed s/w as the parasites are also present in your DT and DT water.

So I'd need six buckets total? My wrasse is generally super peaceful, my flame can bully (though the bullying didn't start until she was in my tank for about 4-5 months and established territory, she was peaceful to that prior). Just to confirm I'm understanding correctly:
1st bucket: Clowns + neon goby + Diamond Goby + Flame Angel
2nd bucket: Red Headed Solon Fairy Wrasse
3rd bucket: Foxface
?

I honestly don't think I'd be able to do 6 additional heaters that are "quality" enough where I don't have to worry about them boiling my fish, especially considering I dropped $150 last night on all the equipment for that 40 gallon breeder, plus the $40 for the tank, plus the additional money it looks like I'll need to spend on a stand. As I originally mentioned, this is happening at a bad time and money is tight for the next couple of months. It seems that with doing the tank transfer method, the cost started at under $50 for everything nut now is slowly sky rocketing to well above $100 which I simply don't have

I suppose I'll have to stick with cupramine

 

[HumbleFish]

So I'd need six buckets total? My wrasse is generally super peaceful, my flame can bully (though the bullying didn't start until she was in my tank for about 4-5 months and established territory, she was peaceful to that prior). Just to confirm I'm understanding correctly:
1st bucket: Clowns + neon goby + Diamond Goby + Flame Angel
2nd bucket: Red Headed Solon Fairy Wrasse
3rd bucket: Foxface
?

I think I may have misunderstood you. Do this:

1st bucket: Clowns + Diamond Goby + Flame Angel
2nd bucket: Red Headed Solon Fairy Wrasse + neon goby + Foxface

Just keep a bottle of Amquel or Prime handy in case you see any ammonia (test daily). And keep an eye out for aggression. Moving forward, you may need to make adjustments with what fish goes in which bucket as the need arises.

I honestly don't think I'd be able to do 6 additional heaters that are "quality" enough where I don't have to worry about them boiling my fish, especially considering I dropped $150 last night on all the equipment for that 40 gallon breeder, plus the $40 for the tank, plus the additional money it looks like I'll need to spend on a stand. As I originally mentioned, this is happening at a bad time and money is tight for the next couple of months. It seems that with doing the tank transfer method, the cost started at under $50 for everything nut now is slowly sky rocketing to well above $100 which I simply don't have

I suppose I'll have to stick with cupramine

You'll only need 4 heaters and 2 air pumps (see above). For air stones, just buy those "Discard a Stone" ones and throw the old ones out after each transfer.

 

[Spork3245]

I think I may have misunderstood you. Do this:

1st bucket: Clowns + Diamond Goby + Flame Angel
2nd bucket: Red Headed Solon Fairy Wrasse + neon goby + Foxface

Just keep a bottle of Amquel or Prime handy in case you see any ammonia (test daily). And keep an eye out for aggression. Moving forward, you may need to make adjustments with what fish goes in which bucket as the need arises.



You'll only need 4 heaters and 2 air pumps (see above). For air stones, just buy those "Discard a Stone" ones and throw the old ones out after each transfer.

Ah, okay, that's do-able then. I already ordered a bottle of prime so I can use (treated) tap water for the 40 gallon breeder instead of constantly running/wasting RODI . I also have API Stress Coat Plus I use for my (20 gallon long) fresh-water angel/tetra tank, would that help the fish "stay calm" at all too or is it not worth using?

BTW, I noticed that in the TT thread it's said that using a net is not recommended...? How am I supposed to move fish from one tank(bucket) to the next? I am *not* going to attempt grabbing my foxface with bare-hands

 

[HumbleFish]

Ah, okay, that's do-able then. I already ordered a bottle of prime so I can use (treated) tap water for the 40 gallon breeder instead of constantly running/wasting RODI . I also have API Stress Coat Plus I use for my (20 gallon long) fresh-water angel/tetra tank, would that help the fish "stay calm" at all too or is it not worth using?

I used Stress Coat many years ago when I kept f/w (I believe as a tap water conditioner). I don't think it has much benefit when doing TT on s/w fish.

BTW, I noticed that in the TT thread it's said that using a net is not recommended...? How am I supposed to move fish from one tank(bucket) to the next? I am *not* going to attempt grabbing my foxface with bare-hands

I can't take credit for this, as I found it in the TT thread:

 

[Spork3245]

^^^^
That's awesome haha. Thank you! I assume I can continue to use the same strainer as long as I sterilize it with vinegar and wash it well?

So Jager heaters, unfortunately, look to put TT method out of my price range since I still need to purchase a stand for that 40 gallon breeder, is there anything cheaper in the 25watt range that is reliable and won't boil my fish due to not shutting off? The max is honestly $50-60 here