Herbie overflow/sump design questions!

[BigGimp77]

So I'm in the planning out stages of my 120g mixed reef tank. It has 2 overflows with 2 holes in in each corner overflow. I plan on utilizing the Herbie method. Here is my current plan as far as plumbing goes:

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I think I will easily get enough siphon from my main drain to match my Mag 9.5. So I'm looking to only do one main siphon drain. I have the Emergency drain placed in the other Corner overflow. I have the 2 return holes used as they are supposed to be. It seems like this should work out well. A couple quick questions though"¦
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I have my Fuge away from my Skimmer so that I manually set the amount of flow I have in it. Are the two gate valves on the main drains line going to cause any issues in the way of calibrating the plumbing to match my pump? I don't think it should be an issues, but it might take a littler while longer to get to the right spot.
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Another question: I planned on having more water volume in the fuge area (hence the higher wall). From what I understand is that this might cause the plumbing to siphon water out of my fuge and send it to my skimmer area until they are of equal level. Is this true? And is there a work around for it (other then making bother areas in the sump have the same water height)?
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My idea is to take out the return pipe in the corner over flow that has my main drain in it. Put a second main drain in there. However this drain will be a much thinner PVC pipe and will be slightly shorter then my Main drain. I will use this smaller drain to take water to my fuge and adjust it (with its own gate valve) till I get the flow I want in the fuge. Then I will have my larger/slightly taller main drain take water just to my skimmer area. I will just have to adjust the larger/taller drain to make up for the difference between the smaller/short drain and my mag 9.5. I think this could work if there is no alternative.
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Also for my sump. I plan on using Phosban down there. Is it best to use a media reactor or can I get away with floating a filter bag of it in the sump? Should I also run carbon (if so in a bag or reactor)?

 

[BigGimp77]

Bump

 

[jeff@zina.com]

I have my Fuge away from my Skimmer so that I manually set the amount of flow I have in it. Are the two gate valves on the main drains line going to cause any issues in the way of calibrating the plumbing to match my pump?

No, In fact, the left valve in your drawing is the only one that will control flow as far as balancing. The right side one just determines whether it goes into the fuge or skimmer compartment.

Another question: I planned on having more water volume in the fuge area (hence the higher wall). From what I understand is that this might cause the plumbing to siphon water out of my fuge and send it to my skimmer area until they are of equal level. Is this true?

No. The glass height determines water levels. Personally, if thois is to scale, your return area is awfully small. Especially since that's the only area for the DT to drain back to in a power outage.

My idea is to take out the return pipe in the corner over flow that has my main drain in it. Put a second main drain in there. However this drain will be a much thinner PVC pipe and will be slightly shorter then my Main drain. I will use this smaller drain to take water to my fuge and adjust it (with its own gate valve) till I get the flow I want in the fuge. Then I will have my larger/slightly taller main drain take water just to my skimmer area. I will just have to adjust the larger/taller drain to make up for the difference between the smaller/short drain and my mag 9.5. I think this could work if there is no alternative.

That's not what your drawing shows, and it's not a Herbie-style drain. And I would think, it would be hard to balance as well.

Jeff

 

[BigGimp77]

No, In fact, the left valve in your drawing is the only one that will control flow as far as balancing. The right side one just determines whether it goes into the fuge or skimmer compartment.



No. The glass height determines water levels. Personally, if thois is to scale, your return area is awfully small. Especially since that's the only area for the DT to drain back to in a power outage.



That's not what your drawing shows, and it's not a Herbie-style drain. And I would think, it would be hard to balance as well.

Jeff

Well its not exaclty to scale... I mean I made it in paint:hammer: lol.

Also if I had a power outage, it wouldn't JUST have the Return area. It would eventually flow over the baffles into the fuge/skimmer area. It would have to fill a lot of my sump, which is a 50g sump.


The dual drain is not in the pic because it's just an idea if my siphon would siphon water out of my fuge into the skimmer area. I was under the understanding that a siphon will suck water out from high areas untill the water levels are equal.

 

[kameleon23]

Im working on doing something similar with my dual overflow 125 gallon. I assume you are doing this in attempt to silent your sump....if that is the case, keep in mind that if your baffle that separates your fuge from your return is much higher than your skimmer to return baffle that you will still have a waterfall from the higher baffle. I ran into this problem with my previous design. I was forced to cut down my fuge baffle a little bit to cut down on the noise.

 

[Palting]

Be aware that most built in overflows have a rated maximum capacity of 700 gph per overflow. Your design is for only one of the overflows to act as the drain, so you are effectively limiting your return to 700 gph as well.

 

[BigGimp77]

Thanks for the advice. I posted this in the orignal herbie overflow thread and got a lot of good feed back. They pointed out some of the flaws in the design.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=344892&page=52

I think I've decided on how I'm going to go about

This solves the sump/siphon issue. And also fixes an issue with my emergency drain that some one noticed.

Palting- The new design should take full copability of my mag 9.5. Also I thought it was the width of the pipe that set my siphon flow. 1.25 inch pipe would get me around 1000+ gph I thought.

 

[Palting]

Yup, this design looks better. My AGA 110 gal has 1.25" drains, but they still rate it at 700 gph. Anyhoo, it doesn't make a difference now, since you will be using both drains.

I am not a fan of t-ing off the return for the 'fuge. You get a recycling effect. Return section to fuge to return section to fuge to return section......... You can still t-off the drains to feed both the fuge and the skimmer. Just raise the skimmer itself on a pedestal and then raise the water level on the skimmer section so that it is equal to the fuge section. No more siphon, no recycling.

 

[BigGimp77]

I am not a fan of t-ing off the return for the 'fuge. You get a recycling effect. Return section to fuge to return section to fuge to return section......... You can still t-off the drains to feed both the fuge and the skimmer. Just raise the skimmer itself on a pedestal and then raise the water level on the skimmer section so that it is equal to the fuge section. No more siphon, no recycling.

TY for the advice. I'm thinking bout giving that a shot. Teeing off will also will hurt my GPH turnover for my mag 9.5. I might just bite the bullet and make the fuge/skimmer area equal in height.

 

[Hermes`]

Like this, Sorry I upgraded your skimmer:thumbsup:

This one you would have a better overall control of flow throughout the tank instead of just in one side, and emergency are for emergency's. GL

 

[BigGimp77]

Like this, Sorry I upgraded your skimmer:thumbsup:

This one you would have a better overall control of flow throughout the tank instead of just in one side, and emergency are for emergency's. GL

Haha. The one issue we discovered in another thread was that the emergency pipe (if in the other over flow) would actually have to be above the over flow box. Both over flows would fill at equal speed. Unfrotunatly the main drain wouldnt be able to drain out of the other over flow. The emergency would actually start a siphon itself if in the other overflow.

The emergency (if placed above the corner overflow) could also fail to start a a siphon if it doesnt have enough from between the pipe and top of the tank. This would also cause stagnant water to be in that over flow because there would be no draining it.

I might take the return pipe and extend it to the middle and tee it off there.

 

[izzyish]

Thanks for the advice. I posted this in the orignal herbie overflow thread and got a lot of good feed back. They pointed out some of the flaws in the design.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=344892&page=52

I think I've decided on how I'm going to go about

This solves the sump/siphon issue. And also fixes an issue with my emergency drain that some one noticed.

Palting- The new design should take full copability of my mag 9.5. Also I thought it was the width of the pipe that set my siphon flow. 1.25 inch pipe would get me around 1000+ gph I thought.

How did this design work out for you?

 

[ecksreef]

Would it be possible to remove one overflow and put two return pipes on that side and hide the vertical pipes with rock, with the herbie on other side?

 

[kckinwa]

Did this work out for you? I am currently in the same boat and looking for solutions.

 

[izzyish]

Did this work out for you? I am currently in the same boat and looking for solutions.

Hey kckinwa, I bought a similar reef ready tank. I ended up with one drain and one emergency in one overflow and the other overflow contained my return and another drain. If you go this route make sure to get gate valves for your drains so that you'll be able to fine tune.

This website helped me out a little with my decision.http://gmacreef.com/

 

[SGT_York]

I have tried this system over the past few years and there are some major downsided that I learned.

There are significant issues with implementation on what has been called a Joint Herbie, joining two siphon lines under the tank with one gate valve. Issue number one the water level in the overflows will be different, and silent is a challenge as one of the overflows in this case the left one will be a few inches lower than the one on the right.

For the balancing overflow to work the plumbing needs to be identical on the siphon lines or in other words the friction loss must be equal if not the height will be different. As the gate valve is to the left the left overflow will have less friction loss and a lower overflow maybe just an inch dependent on actual piping and GPH.

Secondly, when the siphon line get's blocked the right overflow essentially shuts down and all the flow tries to fit into the one emergency, which takes a significant amount of head pressure (water above the pipe opening) until you can get enough flow. Which causes several inches of water raising in the display tank. Expect the water to crest the overflow if you are running 800+ GPH. Possibly higher if the emergency is two or three inches below the overflow crest.

A better solution is two herbies or at least a emergency in each overflow. Either would require running the return behind the tank.