Here is my big tank so far.
- Thread starter gooch
- Start date
I think Ima have to steal your idea for the rock rack though it looks so nice. I do have a question though a closed loop ? what is it LoL is it just PVC from the tank to external pump back into the tank just for circulation ?
Aquabucket
Premium Member
Very cool!!! This looks to be a future TOM one day Scott!
I think what you have done here will influence others. I am really looking forward to seeing this one develop.
Congrats on an awesome job so far!
I think what you have done here will influence others. I am really looking forward to seeing this one develop.
Congrats on an awesome job so far!
DesertBandits
New member
Im an art student with a fair amout of experienmce in ceramics/glaze chemistry. You havn't revealed how much experience you have with ceramics, but I have some serious questions/critique on what you're planning. Here are some points both information and questions I thought I should make:
1. Clay is made up of alumina and silica. when it is fired to vitrification (becomes completely nonporus) it is chemically identical to glass. Overfired clay will actually turn into a glass puddle. It will not harm the reef. Also, your clay contains trace/no calcium. calcium is an ingredient that fires at high temperatures (mostly cone 6 - 10). You said you were low firing.
2. You mentioned earlier about only bisque firing the clay. You simple can't submerge non vitrified clay in water and expect that it won't fall apart. I'm thinking you'd have time within a few years tops before it was rubble and dust. Check some other sources to verify this. Maybe a ceramics teacher at a nearby college can say for sure.
3. As I read throught this post earlier I was cringing while watching you build ceramic structures over your PVC setup. Are you using a specialy formulated clay? From reading your post it seemed like you were using earthenware or some average clay body a potter would use. Such clay will shrink 7-10% after firing, thus no longer fitting your structure.
4. Realize your shapes will warp slightly in the kiln. The only way clay does not warp is if it is low fired, thrown on a potter's wheel, or cast as a liquid. All the pieces you've interlocked may not fit so well together after firing.
I would recommend you work with a stoneware (cone 6-10), which you would fire to vitrification. This will stand up to immersion. You need to take this stoneware, liquefy it and make it into a thick slip (molasses thickness). Next, soak a lot of paper in water overnight and the next day put it in a blender. This will make paper pulp. You mix the clay slip thoroughly with the paper pulp to get something called paper clay. Add as much pulp as the clay can hold while still holding itself together. Now you have to dry out your paperclay. When mixing it up make the mixture as dry as possible so it'll be back at working consistency faster. Probably dump it out on some garbage bags or something (more surface area = faster dying back to working consistency. After about 12 hours or a day ot'll be dry enough to work with. Now make your forms. When you fire them to vitrification you will have strong, very lightweight forms, that are very porus (they will actualy do what liverock does). Also I wouldnt try to make interlocking pieces, just rocks you fit toghther afterwards. Interlocking pieces just aren't going to come out right.
Hope that was informative. Good luck with your idea it'll be alot of work.
By the way. You can make alot of rock and take it to a college or place with a big gas kiln and pay to have it fired. This will be way cheaper than firing your little electric kiln a bunch of times. For that price you might as well buy real LR (in guessing 30$ each firing).
1. Clay is made up of alumina and silica. when it is fired to vitrification (becomes completely nonporus) it is chemically identical to glass. Overfired clay will actually turn into a glass puddle. It will not harm the reef. Also, your clay contains trace/no calcium. calcium is an ingredient that fires at high temperatures (mostly cone 6 - 10). You said you were low firing.
2. You mentioned earlier about only bisque firing the clay. You simple can't submerge non vitrified clay in water and expect that it won't fall apart. I'm thinking you'd have time within a few years tops before it was rubble and dust. Check some other sources to verify this. Maybe a ceramics teacher at a nearby college can say for sure.
3. As I read throught this post earlier I was cringing while watching you build ceramic structures over your PVC setup. Are you using a specialy formulated clay? From reading your post it seemed like you were using earthenware or some average clay body a potter would use. Such clay will shrink 7-10% after firing, thus no longer fitting your structure.
4. Realize your shapes will warp slightly in the kiln. The only way clay does not warp is if it is low fired, thrown on a potter's wheel, or cast as a liquid. All the pieces you've interlocked may not fit so well together after firing.
I would recommend you work with a stoneware (cone 6-10), which you would fire to vitrification. This will stand up to immersion. You need to take this stoneware, liquefy it and make it into a thick slip (molasses thickness). Next, soak a lot of paper in water overnight and the next day put it in a blender. This will make paper pulp. You mix the clay slip thoroughly with the paper pulp to get something called paper clay. Add as much pulp as the clay can hold while still holding itself together. Now you have to dry out your paperclay. When mixing it up make the mixture as dry as possible so it'll be back at working consistency faster. Probably dump it out on some garbage bags or something (more surface area = faster dying back to working consistency. After about 12 hours or a day ot'll be dry enough to work with. Now make your forms. When you fire them to vitrification you will have strong, very lightweight forms, that are very porus (they will actualy do what liverock does). Also I wouldnt try to make interlocking pieces, just rocks you fit toghther afterwards. Interlocking pieces just aren't going to come out right.
Hope that was informative. Good luck with your idea it'll be alot of work.
By the way. You can make alot of rock and take it to a college or place with a big gas kiln and pay to have it fired. This will be way cheaper than firing your little electric kiln a bunch of times. For that price you might as well buy real LR (in guessing 30$ each firing).
DesertBandits
New member
oh yeah, one more thing If you fired at a college you could fire your 4 piece rock as 1 piece (gas kilns are so roomy inside). Then you would avoid any issues of pieces not matching up later.
Reefski's
Active member
i know absolutely nothing about pottery or clay but the above sounds right to me. i would want to test some pieces as the only filtration in a tank for a long time, years.
LR has pores that are anoxic. does this clay mixture have all the microscopic pores? LR is calcium carbonate but even more important it have a MYRIAD of life. not just the bacteria, however important that is.
read Eric's post on http://www.marinedepot.com/FORUMS/Topic23945-9-1.aspx about how long it takes a tank to mature even using LR.
Carl
LR has pores that are anoxic. does this clay mixture have all the microscopic pores? LR is calcium carbonate but even more important it have a MYRIAD of life. not just the bacteria, however important that is.
read Eric's post on http://www.marinedepot.com/FORUMS/Topic23945-9-1.aspx about how long it takes a tank to mature even using LR.
Carl
DesertBandits
New member
Clay does infact have microscopic pores. If you take unglazed fired clay and run it under some water you will hear a hissing sound. Its the sound of the dry clay body taking on the water. It is definately a porous material. Even a clay fired to vitrification can still take on water if it is not glazed. The glaze is a melted glass layer that protect the rigid, but still porous clay form it covers from liquid. This may sound like I'm contradicting what I said earler; that even though you are firing to vitrification it is still pourus. Don't worry, it will hold up under water as long as its fully fired.
Desert Bandits,
Thanks for the info. You are right in assuming I have no idea what I am doing. I don't. You are right on the shrinkage. That is why I scrapped the first attempt. While it still held together just looked like crap to me after the shrinkage.
The pieces I just made turned out great. I realize what you are saying about interlocking pieces. The new rocks are built to solve that.
I may be using my wording incorrectly. Like I said. I talked to my potter guy and this is what he said would work. I will talk to him again before I go further. I fire at cone 08. I can go to a higher temp no problem. I have been told this should be fine. Wouldn't be the first time I have been wrong or been given wrong information.
Does it contain calcium, you know you are probably right there as well. In fact I am 95% certain you are right. Remember this is a learning process for me as well.
I just pulled some pieces out of the tank that have been in tank since 6-6-2005. I was unable to even scrape it in any way. It has fully encrusted with coralines and is harder than any liverock I have in my tank now.
I understand the paper clay process. It was explained to me but your explanation is better. Thank you for that as well. However I decided not to go that route and instead I worked up the surface creating more area for bacteria and animals to live.
I will discuss what you have wrote with the potter I know. Again thank you. These are good things to know. That is the main reason I havn't gone into greater detail or said what I am using. If it fails I am out about a grand. Had fun and tried something different. If I had to go and buy liverock I honestly would probably sell everything and go freshwater. I do not want to go back there. If you know me or my personality you would understand my need to do it my way. I am bored with the hobby and this has made it fun again.
Thanks for the info. You are right in assuming I have no idea what I am doing. I don't. You are right on the shrinkage. That is why I scrapped the first attempt. While it still held together just looked like crap to me after the shrinkage.
The pieces I just made turned out great. I realize what you are saying about interlocking pieces. The new rocks are built to solve that.
I may be using my wording incorrectly. Like I said. I talked to my potter guy and this is what he said would work. I will talk to him again before I go further. I fire at cone 08. I can go to a higher temp no problem. I have been told this should be fine. Wouldn't be the first time I have been wrong or been given wrong information.
Does it contain calcium, you know you are probably right there as well. In fact I am 95% certain you are right. Remember this is a learning process for me as well.
I just pulled some pieces out of the tank that have been in tank since 6-6-2005. I was unable to even scrape it in any way. It has fully encrusted with coralines and is harder than any liverock I have in my tank now.
I understand the paper clay process. It was explained to me but your explanation is better. Thank you for that as well. However I decided not to go that route and instead I worked up the surface creating more area for bacteria and animals to live.
I will discuss what you have wrote with the potter I know. Again thank you. These are good things to know. That is the main reason I havn't gone into greater detail or said what I am using. If it fails I am out about a grand. Had fun and tried something different. If I had to go and buy liverock I honestly would probably sell everything and go freshwater. I do not want to go back there. If you know me or my personality you would understand my need to do it my way. I am bored with the hobby and this has made it fun again.
My kiln costs about $10 a fire. I do have access to a large gas kiln but I do not want to bother him if I do not have to. This is seriously more about doing something different than about saving money.
I am not glazing this either.
If anything I wrote sounds snotty it is not my intention. I of course would much rather have this work and not fail.
I am not glazing this either.
If anything I wrote sounds snotty it is not my intention. I of course would much rather have this work and not fail.
DesertBandits
New member
Sounds like you're on the right track and that you are pretty aware of what you are doing, despite the trial and error. Even if you have low fire clay, as long as its pretty close to vitrified I'm sure its probably gonna be allright. After i did that 3rd post in a row I realized that you don't even need to do paperclay, any fired clay is a great home for bacteria. I realized its no accident that they make those ceramic bioball things for filtration. Ceramics are really great for culturing bacteria. Its making me think I should make a few pieces of ceramic LR my own for my tank, heh heh.
Seriously I think you are really onto something. All that concrete rock is pretty nonporus, but this ceramic rock idea could be a huge improvement on that. I have a feeling you will have many imitators in the future. Can't wait to see the new pics and good luck.
Seriously I think you are really onto something. All that concrete rock is pretty nonporus, but this ceramic rock idea could be a huge improvement on that. I have a feeling you will have many imitators in the future. Can't wait to see the new pics and good luck.
carloskoi,
As for how long it takes to cycle a tank. I know it takes a long time for bacteria to colonize. The only component of this system that hasn't been running long term already is the tank itself. I have two refugiums. One packed with macro's and bugs and worms up the ying yang. Another with rubble and a healthy sponge population. I have all the corals and fish in well established systems. I am basically going from a 150 gallon tank to a 375 gallon tank. The 375 will also run on its own for a few months before I transfer everything. And I will probably keep the 150 online for a time after that.
Also there is more than one way to keep a succesfull reef tank. Some people use cinder blocks. Others use concrete shaped like rocks. Others use limestone from quarries...ect,ect.
After seven years in the hobby and three in retail I have seen some good rock and some pretty crappy stuff. I do believe you need a place for the creatures to colonize. But that doesn't have to be liverock. Remember most of it dies in a cycle initially. The reason it takes so long to cycle is you need to build the bacteria back up. In the early stages of a tank everytime you add something the tank has a mini cycle. The bacteria needs to catch up to the added bioload. While the little bugs help break things down they cycle up and down to so IMO it is hard to rely on just them to filter a system.
And as far as liverock and filtration. I think I read somewhere(not sure where) that 90% of all filtration performed by liverock is on the surface or just below it. I have heard more than once from more than one expert that liverock is over rated. But thats another thread in another place.
As for the ceramic. It has just as much surface area as liverock. And I could easily give you the line that because it is denser denitification occurs closer to the surface than what liverock and more porous rock does. Does it? I don't know but much of the info on liverock is anecdotal(sorry if I spelled that wrong). You could take two tanks do the exact same things in both tanks and have different results. So unless we try new things we will never grow or improve as a hobby.
I have great respect for many of the hobby experts. They have helped me out more than once. I am no expert, never claimed to be and I do not want to be. But if I can find another way to make the hobby better don't you think it is worth a try? I do. And I am not the first to do this. It is actually pretty popular overseas.
As for how long it takes to cycle a tank. I know it takes a long time for bacteria to colonize. The only component of this system that hasn't been running long term already is the tank itself. I have two refugiums. One packed with macro's and bugs and worms up the ying yang. Another with rubble and a healthy sponge population. I have all the corals and fish in well established systems. I am basically going from a 150 gallon tank to a 375 gallon tank. The 375 will also run on its own for a few months before I transfer everything. And I will probably keep the 150 online for a time after that.
Also there is more than one way to keep a succesfull reef tank. Some people use cinder blocks. Others use concrete shaped like rocks. Others use limestone from quarries...ect,ect.
After seven years in the hobby and three in retail I have seen some good rock and some pretty crappy stuff. I do believe you need a place for the creatures to colonize. But that doesn't have to be liverock. Remember most of it dies in a cycle initially. The reason it takes so long to cycle is you need to build the bacteria back up. In the early stages of a tank everytime you add something the tank has a mini cycle. The bacteria needs to catch up to the added bioload. While the little bugs help break things down they cycle up and down to so IMO it is hard to rely on just them to filter a system.
And as far as liverock and filtration. I think I read somewhere(not sure where) that 90% of all filtration performed by liverock is on the surface or just below it. I have heard more than once from more than one expert that liverock is over rated. But thats another thread in another place.
As for the ceramic. It has just as much surface area as liverock. And I could easily give you the line that because it is denser denitification occurs closer to the surface than what liverock and more porous rock does. Does it? I don't know but much of the info on liverock is anecdotal(sorry if I spelled that wrong). You could take two tanks do the exact same things in both tanks and have different results. So unless we try new things we will never grow or improve as a hobby.
I have great respect for many of the hobby experts. They have helped me out more than once. I am no expert, never claimed to be and I do not want to be. But if I can find another way to make the hobby better don't you think it is worth a try? I do. And I am not the first to do this. It is actually pretty popular overseas.
reeffantic
New member
I have got to follow this thread!
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