LobsterOfJustice
Recovering Detritophobe
Please list causes and cures for this condition. I have a majestic angel I need to cure.
HLLE - Head and Lateral Line Erosion
- Thread starter LobsterOfJustice
- Start date
Here is a link to the thread that contains the results of a survey I undertook:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1567469&highlight=hlle+survey
Here is a link to a study that I'm working on (not the results, only an introduction, the study is still underway): http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/hlle-and-activated-carbon-looking-link
Jay
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1567469&highlight=hlle+survey
Here is a link to a study that I'm working on (not the results, only an introduction, the study is still underway): http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/hlle-and-activated-carbon-looking-link
Jay
TampaReefer79
Premium Member
JHmedal:
I'm going to go read that link you posted...and to the other poster, I was under the impression that a fish will never recover 100% from HLLE... ?? Also, there are many different things that could cause HLLE. Proper nutrition isn't going to reverse HLLE if the fish already receives proper nutrition. I think the OP needs to try to narrow down what MIGHT be the cause, and fix THAT issue. In other words, is it in a tank too small? Is it bullied? Does it eat properly? What are it's tankmates? Do you run carbon? Do you have stray electricity in the tank? There are 100 'maybe' causes.
I'm going to go read that link you posted...and to the other poster, I was under the impression that a fish will never recover 100% from HLLE... ?? Also, there are many different things that could cause HLLE. Proper nutrition isn't going to reverse HLLE if the fish already receives proper nutrition. I think the OP needs to try to narrow down what MIGHT be the cause, and fix THAT issue. In other words, is it in a tank too small? Is it bullied? Does it eat properly? What are it's tankmates? Do you run carbon? Do you have stray electricity in the tank? There are 100 'maybe' causes.
eskymick
Active member
+1
I purchased a Majestic from my LFS. It had a moderate case of HLLE. I added Selcon and Vita-Chem to it's food, and within a few months the HLLE had completely healed and disappeared.
eskymick,
That is exactly what the survey showed - there are actually TWO variables in the case of your majestic - the change in diet AND the change in environment (because you took the fish home to a new tank). It turns out that something like 85% of the reported cures I looked at also involved moving the fish to a new aquarium, one that has no history of HLLE. For at least some of the remaining cases of cures, the fish's aquarium was substantially changed - huge water change, etc. Diet change, electrical current, etc. all seem to be coincidental, or at least secondary. For example; there was a flurry of activity years ago where a public aquarium surmised that "natural sunlight" would cure HLLE. The problem is that in all the test cases, the affected fish had to be moved to new tanks in order to resolve the problem - adding that second variable was actually the curative agent, not the sunlight(grin)
I didn't find many cases where HLLE was reversed by diet changes alone - there was always some other change in the environment that happened when the diet was changed.
Tampareefer79,
Fish reach a point where the HLLE scars are so severe, that moving the fish to a better environment will not totally eliminate the scars. I've seen a number of cases where the scars regained the fish's original coloration, but you can still see their outlines (like in the picture of the chevron tang in the second link).
Jay
That is exactly what the survey showed - there are actually TWO variables in the case of your majestic - the change in diet AND the change in environment (because you took the fish home to a new tank). It turns out that something like 85% of the reported cures I looked at also involved moving the fish to a new aquarium, one that has no history of HLLE. For at least some of the remaining cases of cures, the fish's aquarium was substantially changed - huge water change, etc. Diet change, electrical current, etc. all seem to be coincidental, or at least secondary. For example; there was a flurry of activity years ago where a public aquarium surmised that "natural sunlight" would cure HLLE. The problem is that in all the test cases, the affected fish had to be moved to new tanks in order to resolve the problem - adding that second variable was actually the curative agent, not the sunlight(grin)
I didn't find many cases where HLLE was reversed by diet changes alone - there was always some other change in the environment that happened when the diet was changed.
Tampareefer79,
Fish reach a point where the HLLE scars are so severe, that moving the fish to a better environment will not totally eliminate the scars. I've seen a number of cases where the scars regained the fish's original coloration, but you can still see their outlines (like in the picture of the chevron tang in the second link).
Jay
LobsterOfJustice
Recovering Detritophobe
The fish gets a huge variety of frozen foods, and sometimes spectrum pellets and flakes. He is in a 180g tank and is not bullied by anyone. He did not have it when I bought him, but he has developed it over the summer. He was in hypo for a few weeks.
LobsterOfJustice
Recovering Detritophobe
I use activated carbon and change it out about once a month. I use the granular carbon from bulkreefsupply. I run it in a reactor and waste the first 5g that run though the reactor as a means of rinsing it. I have been doing this since getting in to the hobby 6 years ago. I just got this angel in january and he has been developing a patch on his head since the beginning of summer.
RegalAngel
Member
Lob,
Its probably the carbon. I had three angels in a 300g using a vast amount of pelletized carbon, and all three developed HLLE scars to some degree. I am no longer using carbon, but the scaring is still present on the angels.....one is a Majestic.
Some of my carbon got into the substrate and then when I stirred it up to clean with a power filter, it appears that is when the fine particles caused the HLLE issue. I also had a purple tang with severe HLLE that I had to put down.
Good luck.
Its probably the carbon. I had three angels in a 300g using a vast amount of pelletized carbon, and all three developed HLLE scars to some degree. I am no longer using carbon, but the scaring is still present on the angels.....one is a Majestic.
Some of my carbon got into the substrate and then when I stirred it up to clean with a power filter, it appears that is when the fine particles caused the HLLE issue. I also had a purple tang with severe HLLE that I had to put down.
Good luck.
Damasta5,
There has never been any formal studies that implicated electricl current in tanks as causing HLLE. It turns out that you can measure induced voltage in most aquariums, so it is coincidence, not cause and effect.
sunil6784,
But you moved the fish to a new tank, correct? That is the variable you need to look at, not the diet.
Jay
There has never been any formal studies that implicated electricl current in tanks as causing HLLE. It turns out that you can measure induced voltage in most aquariums, so it is coincidence, not cause and effect.
sunil6784,
But you moved the fish to a new tank, correct? That is the variable you need to look at, not the diet.
Jay
eskymick
Active member
Additional support for your survey ....
A couple years ago, a friend of mine purchased a Hippo Tang with a severe case of HLLE. He began adding Selcon and Vita-Chem to it's food, and within a few months the HLLE was about 80% "cured". Some scars remained, and we just assumed it was as good as it was going to get. It's condition remained that way for more than a year.
A few months ago, my friend downsized his reef and he gave the Hippo to me. Since we both feed the same foods and supplements, I didn't really expect any changes in the Hippo's appearance. HOWEVER, I'm now happy to say that the remaining scars on the Hippo have now disappeared. So, yeah, it's not just diet alone, "location, location, location" is also a factor.
ironwill723
Well-known member
I have a Purple Tang in a 220g reef that has HLLE. I have been using BRS carbon and gfo in a BRS dual reactor but I think I am going to discontinue use of carbon for a few months and see if anything changes. I too noticed the HLLE starting after I didn't rinse the new carbon well enough and some fines made their way into the DT about 4 months ago. I already feed with selcon and water quality is good. Only reason I haven't discontinued carbon already is because I run ozone and am hesitant to run ozone without some carbon. All other fish seem unaffected. Purple tang is largest fish in tank, not bullied, and eats well. He has always been shy/skittish though so that may contribute to his issue.
LobsterOfJustice
Recovering Detritophobe
I began soaking foods in vitamins 2 of my 3 feedings a day - but since then the skimmer has become essentially useless. Between selcon, vitachem, zoe, and V3, the skimmer is either overflowing or has no head on it at all. Annoying...
Can high nitrates cause HLLE in angels?
Can high nitrates cause HLLE in angels?
"Can high nitrates cause HLLE in angels?" - has been suspected, but never proven.
Tom Frakes from Aquarium Systems (IIRC) did a spiked seawater study and showed that nitrate ion concentration, by itself, does not cause any problems with fish, even at very high levels. this was done by spiking otherwise pristine aquarium water with sodium nitrate. As you know, in real life, as nitrate levels rise, so do levels of other pollutants, and still others become depleted. It turns out that nitrate measuring (for fish) is really just an easy means to measure all these other changes that take place in "used" aquarium water. Do any of THOSE other changes cause HLLE? Still no proof....just as there is no valid studies showing that it is nutritionally derived either.
Again, not to belabor the point, but we need to key in on why moving the fish is almost always part of the sucessful "cures". Carbon is definately one cause - but there may be more.
Jay
Tom Frakes from Aquarium Systems (IIRC) did a spiked seawater study and showed that nitrate ion concentration, by itself, does not cause any problems with fish, even at very high levels. this was done by spiking otherwise pristine aquarium water with sodium nitrate. As you know, in real life, as nitrate levels rise, so do levels of other pollutants, and still others become depleted. It turns out that nitrate measuring (for fish) is really just an easy means to measure all these other changes that take place in "used" aquarium water. Do any of THOSE other changes cause HLLE? Still no proof....just as there is no valid studies showing that it is nutritionally derived either.
Again, not to belabor the point, but we need to key in on why moving the fish is almost always part of the sucessful "cures". Carbon is definately one cause - but there may be more.
Jay
Toddrtrex
Premium Member
Maybe I have been lucky, but I am not 100% on carbon being a cause. Been keeping tanks since 1992, and have always used carbon (( over the last 5 years it has been Seachem's matrix carbon, in the past marineland's and aquarium pharmaceuticals -- at least if my memory serves )). And I don't recall any of my fish every having HLLE -- and can say for a fact that none have in the last 10 years. This includes, tangs, clowns, angels (( mainly dwarfs )) and a few misc. fish.
LukFox
Active member
In reference to changing locations being part of it: I had a purple tang that developed HLLE in my tank because (I think at least, no hard proof) I more or less stopped feeding nori. The only thing I did to remedy it was I began feeding nori again and added selcon to the food. No change in location. The tang made a complete recovery. It was a minor case to begin with and was caught early, and it completely disappeared with the diet change.
Todd,
Well, it turns out that not all carbons cause HLLE, and rinsing them first helps. Also, a good protein skimmer removes the carbon fines, so you rarely see HLLE from carbon in a well-skimmed tank. The worst carbon is that flat black, porous, lightweight carbon, used unwashed. The worst way to use it is to put that in a carbon reactor or otherwise allow water motion to grind it up.
My study hasn't been published yet, but 100% of the surgeonfish exposed to dusty carbon developed severe HLLE, 0% of the controls did (two groups - one with no carbon and one with rinsed pelleted carbon). My research biologist calls this a "trenchant effect" - I had to look that up(grin ).
Alexa,
That is rare, but it does happen. One of my aquarists reported to me today that a bignose naso we've had off exhibit for many years with HLLE got better after another aquarist siphoned all of the detritus out of the sump, and did a big water change - no diet change at all...but in terms on environment, it was pretty much in a "new tank".
It really is dusty carbon that causes this - the study proves it. There were no uncontrolled variables, we even micro-filtered the incoming air, each of the three systems were set up exactly the same. We ran two diet sub-studies for each of the three systems - no statistical difference between them. Are there other causes of HLLE? I don't know, this is just one study - others studies would help.
Jay
Well, it turns out that not all carbons cause HLLE, and rinsing them first helps. Also, a good protein skimmer removes the carbon fines, so you rarely see HLLE from carbon in a well-skimmed tank. The worst carbon is that flat black, porous, lightweight carbon, used unwashed. The worst way to use it is to put that in a carbon reactor or otherwise allow water motion to grind it up.
My study hasn't been published yet, but 100% of the surgeonfish exposed to dusty carbon developed severe HLLE, 0% of the controls did (two groups - one with no carbon and one with rinsed pelleted carbon). My research biologist calls this a "trenchant effect" - I had to look that up(grin ).
Alexa,
That is rare, but it does happen. One of my aquarists reported to me today that a bignose naso we've had off exhibit for many years with HLLE got better after another aquarist siphoned all of the detritus out of the sump, and did a big water change - no diet change at all...but in terms on environment, it was pretty much in a "new tank".
It really is dusty carbon that causes this - the study proves it. There were no uncontrolled variables, we even micro-filtered the incoming air, each of the three systems were set up exactly the same. We ran two diet sub-studies for each of the three systems - no statistical difference between them. Are there other causes of HLLE? I don't know, this is just one study - others studies would help.
Jay
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