HLLE - Head and Lateral Line Erosion

[LobsterOfJustice]

I guess it could be carbon, and I am running it - but why am I not seeing it in my tangs? Also, I've run carbon since getting in to the hobby, more or less always the same way (granular carbon, rinsed, run in a reactor) and I never had issues prior to this. I kept a different majestic angel for years, in addition to a tang and rabbit with him, and they never showed any signs. And now I have two tangs and a butterfly in addition to this majestic and multicolor dwarf - and only the two angels are showing signs. Also, if it makes any difference, it's only on their heads and not their lateral lines (yet?).

 

[Toddrtrex]

Interesting, I have always rinsed my carbon, and for the last 10+ years it has been used in filter bags on a shelf in my sumps. Though for one of my tanks it is in a "phosban" reactor, but with a low flow rate so there is no grinding (( daisy chained with phosban, so slow for that )).

 

[aquaph8]

I read a study that found that HLLE was not found in captive bred fish. While I do believe that carbon etc.... could be part of the cause, I think captivity is the real culprit. Kinda like the orcas at sea world and how their fin hangs over when kept in captivity.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

I read a study that found that HLLE was not found in captive bred fish. While I do believe that carbon etc.... could be part of the cause, I think captivity is the real culprit. Kinda like the orcas at sea world and how their fin hangs over when kept in captivity.

Well, this is a slanted view. The species most commonly exhibiting HLLE are wild caught in all cases now. There is no one captive breeding them, so its a rather moot argument.

FWIW, I think that Jays research is some of the first empirical and scientific study looking at this concern. Such research does need to be handled scientifically (as Jay is doing) where there are specific and strict controls and manipulation of variables. Too often aquarists argue points that cant even be remotely shown to be "cause and effect" as there are numerous and multiple variables that change at once, or data is lacking.

 

[JHemdal]

I'd like to toss out a personal opinion here: I'm not convinced that there are not two or more types of HLLE.

We already know that HLLE in freshwater fish is caused by Sprionuclueos or Hexamita protozoans, and can be cured with metronidazole. There is also a similar erosion seen only in grouper-like fishes. A study on Murray Cod linked that to heavy metals (IIRC). This syndrome appears as a minor facial erosion, only on certain species, the body color still shows through. There is also the HLLE that shows differently on angelfish...small facial pits that rarely involve the lateral line. Then, there is the typical HLLE seen in tangs, where the discoloration extends down the lateral line. Finally, there is what I call acute HLLE. This is what our test fish demonstrated. The onset is rapid (starting within 40 days) and the involvement is widespread over the fish's body. One telling sign of this type of HLLE is that the soft integument between the fin rays is also eroded. Fish can actually die from this form.

So - are there different causes, or are these varied symptoms just due to differences in skin tissue between species and the degree to which the instigating factor causes the HLLE? I don't know - carbon use is so prevalent, it is impossible to say without further study.

As I've pointed out in another thread - there is another researcher also looking into the carbon connection. My study mirrors his (I started mine after he started his, but I was unaware of his project), except that they are looking into a different reason WHY carbon causes HLLE.



Jay

 

[aquaph8]

Well, this is a slanted view. The species most commonly exhibiting HLLE are wild caught in all cases now. There is no one captive breeding them, so its a rather moot argument.

FWIW, I think that Jays research is some of the first empirical and scientific study looking at this concern. Such research does need to be handled scientifically (as Jay is doing) where there are specific and strict controls and manipulation of variables. Too often aquarists argue points that cant even be remotely shown to be "cause and effect" as there are numerous and multiple variables that change at once, or data is lacking.

Its not just captivity its self but something that there not getting in captivity. Dont quote me on this, but I dont think fish in the ocean get HLLE. At the same time one can argue that the ocean doesn't use activated carbon and probably some other things we use in our tanks . I just find it interesting that only wild caught species get it.

 

[JHemdal]

"I dont think fish in the ocean get HLLE." - Actually, I've found two images of fish in the wild with HLLE. One is of a big old black rostratum tang that is showing its lateral line. The other is a juvenile emperor angelfish taken by National Geographic photographer Tim Laman. I asked him for a copy, and he said he would send it, but never did. A link to the image is here:
http://www.art.com/asp/View_HighZoo....jpg&imgwidth=894&imgheight=671&artistName=© Tim Laman

Look for the tiny spots behind the angel's eye, after the first full stripe. At first, I had suspected the photographer of staging the shot - the fish in the background is an adult emperor, (an unlikely natural pairing) and I thought for sure that the HLLE on the juvenile meant that the image was taken in an aquarium. It turns out that it WAS a shot from Indonesia and funny thing - this fish was found in an area of black sand - looks kind of like carbon (grin).


Jay

 

[aquaph8]

Wow, thanks for that Jay. Very interesting. Its really good to hear someone is spending some time working on HLLE. Its one of those things that seems to get overlooked in this hobby. Good luck with your studies and please keep us updated on your findings.

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

Also worth noting is that I skim my tank very well, which you mentioned usually takes care of any carbon dust.

Interesting you mention an angel-specific form manifesting only as pits on the head and not the lateral line, as this is what I am seeing in my Majestic and Multicolor.

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

In the past few weeks I have performed 3 50% water changes to get my nitrate levels under control. They are now sitting around 20ppm.

However, I believe the little majestic has gotten worse. He is really losing tissue all over his face, not just his temple. Also, the sailfin tang I have had for several years now has a few spots on his temple.

Completely at a loss here. I will unplug carbon and see if that helps.

 

[ironwill723]

lobster can you give us any updates?

 

[alton]

I have a Chevron that had it a few years ago. I did not run carbon, nitrates stayed around 2ppm. I had him in two different tanks and both where what I call too clean. No algae except for coralline, he would not eat sheets of any algae. I end up borrowing him to a fish store whose reef tank was having issues with hair algae. Within 8 months the HLLE was receeding and so was the algae in the tank. Since then I now have him in a 300 and soak all his food in Zoe and Zoecon along with feeding spiralina brine shrimp and you can not tell he ever had it. I have always been told that stray voltage can cause it, but none of my tanks ever have any. Spiralina seems to be the miracle cure for me.

 

[ptan]

I just purchased a powder blue tang from a fellow reefer. Didnt notice from his tank that the powder blue tang have several holes in his body. The holes are aligned to its lateral lines upto to its head... the holes are 1-2mm diameter. I searched rc and the web for pictures of hlle and tried to look if what sickness it is. But with no avail with the right answers. If i may ask for some pictures, it will be great. And if i may ask, do hlle creates holes in the body to the head of the fish?

currently the fish is in my qt tank (50 gallons) with skimmer. Didnt put any medications yet. Just feeding it with nori+selcon and other feeds i have. Im hoping that it will heal by itself. It eats twice a day. Hope someone can shed some info about it.

Im hoping that i can share some pics of it, but sadly im out of town for 3 weeks. My wife is the one feeding it back at home... Thank you.