How do we feel About Deep Sand Beds?

[smoothdog]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11953366#post11953366 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jglackin

...In other words, my DSB can beat up your DSB.

Oh, yeah? Well I double dog dare ya to eat that cleaner shrimp! :lol:

ha ha!

I'm not saying your way is wrong, but a plenum and a true/pure DSB are slightly different things that accomplish the same end result. I just prefer the oolitic DSB because I feel that there is less to go wrong. In the plenum the screen will keep the fine sand on top which will keep large waste particles from settling down into the sand bed / plenum. Not that it's likely but if the screen fails for some reason (digging livestock (did you secure that screen to something like egg crate or pvc? If not it can be moved!), material breakdown over time, etc.) the fine sand will settle to the bottom between the larger agrigate exposing it, trapping detritus.
Your setup is fairly new so the top 2 layers have not mixed yet but it is inevitable, vibration, worms, livestock, etc. will take care of that. Not that it's a problem as long as it stays mixed and the fine sand doesn't settle below the coarse stuff. I know this from experience, I started with a 2-3in coarse sandbed on the advice of my LFS and had nothing but problems with nitrate due to all the crud being trapped in the substrate. After getting the correct info I siphon cleaned the sand as best as I could and added the oolitic on top to make it 5" deep. I had to deal with a cyano outbreak for a few weeks while the remaining detritus decomposed and the anerobic bacteria got established but then it was like someone flipped a switch, the cyano and hair algae that had spiked dissapeared in less than a week and the coralline took off. That was about a year ago and now the coarse and oolitic sand have mixed without any intervention from me (I don't gravel vac so as not to disturb the anerobic layer) and still no problems.

So my sandbed can take a lickin' and keep on tickin'!

 

[smoothdog]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11953740#post11953740 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HBtank
...Anyways, as long as it works for you, that's what is important.

Exactly!

 

[HBtank]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11952991#post11952991 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jova
When I first set up my tank, I went with a 6" DSB. The folks at Inland Aquatics recommended it, and they have a DSB in every tank in their establishment. I've had this DSB for 7 years now, and it is now colored by many different types of coraline algea. But this thread now has me concerned, since I am getting ready to upgrade to a 75 gallon tank, adding a sump underneath. The original plan was to just scoop out the DSB, put it into the 75 and add some fresh aragonite sand to make up for the difference of the larger tank, keeping the DSB at 6" in the new tank. What I'm wondering now is what problems may arise by disturbing and moving the DSB. But as for the original question of this thread, I've always loved my DSB and have never felt that it caused any problems. But if anyone has any suggestions on what to do as far as MOVING it goes, please chime in

If you are just moving to a bigger tank, I would use all new sand and seed it with a good amount of the old, especially the top layers in order to keep the diversity of fauna.

Sand beds to not do well when totally disturbed such as being removed entirely and put back in place.. Mixing the different bacteria zones in one fell swoop would not be a good idea, unless it was given time by itself to sort out. There will be die off of some sort, and the detrius that is there will be mixed up into the water column for a period. All in all, you could get an ammonia spike that your livestock could suffer from.

No matter what there will be a shift in biological filtration for a time, but the addition of more cured live rock etc.. may compensate until the bed catches back up.

Or you could slowly siphon sand out and let your tank adapt before the move, just keeping a small layer for the move to seed the new tank...

If you could get the other tank running and seeded before, that would be best.

I have done it before, all went well.

 

[its fry]

expensive. need all the critters to keep it clean.

 

[smoothdog]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11953879#post11953879 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HBtank
If you are just moving to a bigger tank, I would use all new sand and seed it with a good amount of the old,

I don't think I would throw out that old sand just yet...

here is a good article about moving sand beds that I found in the forums the other day:

http://www.melevsreef.com/rinsing_sand.html

By the way, in case you didn't know, Marc is the new editor of Reefkeeping magazine so he might have a good idea of what he's talking about. He's got some pretty good diy threads here in the forums that are worth cheking out when you have time.

 

[HBtank]

I don't know bout all that.

Washing my old sand with tap water would be less favorable and more time consuming to me than just getting new sand. I use cheap silica sand though

I would be concerned about dieoff from anything left in the sand (Specifically bacteria) from being chlorinated and FW dipped. Hard for me to imagine all organics and life wcan be washed away so easily. I would not be comfortable transferring my livestock right after. Time cures everything of course, so if you need to save a buck and have aragonite and some time to make sure all is well, I see no reason why not.

Either way, you need to wash or get new sand, and seed it with your old sand.

 

[datablitz]

smoothdog, some of the customers i had for a while prior to removing the dsb, some customers just had me remove the dsb, replace with ssb, and that is all i did for them, they continued their own similar practices, and have had improvement. for most there was no change in husbandry on the tank, other than having the dsb removed.

 

[smoothdog]

HBtank, Since you are using silica sand I'm guessing you don't get a lot of dust in the sand, aragonite sand tends to abrade quite easily though so there is a lot of dust when new and requires rinsing anyway so this is generally not extra work, unless you like having a dust storm in your tank for a few weeks.
As far as die off is concerned, sand is very abrasive so I think the action of rinsing and stirring tends to scrape the majority of the surface bacteria loose and it's rinsed out. You could use declorinated water to rinse with. Obviously not all the bacteria would be removed but not all of it would necessarily be killed either helping to reseed the sand more quickly. I think any time you move/upgrade a tank there is a risk of a mini cycle regardless of what you do with the sand and you just need to monitor well and be prepared to do water changes in the event it happens.

datablitz, Obviously removing the sand bed is working for you and that is great but DSBs have been proven to work and it is commonly heard of for people to run them for years without problem. I just can't help but think that there was a poblem with the way the sandbed was setup to begin with, either being too shallow or using too coarse a sand. I'm just curious here but when you've removed these beds have you checked to see if they were 4" deep at the very minimum (even this is considered too shallow by some) or did you notice if the sand was coarse or sugar fine? If the sand is only 2"-3.5" deep then it's to deep to be fully aerobic but not deep enough to be fully anerobic as the sand shifts in the tank causing the aerobic to die off near the bottom but not long enough for the anerobic to establish well, if it's too coarse then the detritus settles into the sand creating a nutrient sink. There needs to be fairly fine sand at the top of the bed and good flow across it to keep the detritus in the water column where it can be filtered out by the skimmer or mechanically.

 

[frankrip]

Zero evidence that plenums are more effective than DSB's at doing what? Can you show me this zero evidence?

I just had to

 

[datablitz]

smooth, most were between 4-6 inches, some were a mixture of coarse and fine, some were just a single grain size. i didnt setup any of these tanks, i just re-did them. the point im getting at is that there are potential problems with a dsb, a lot of people that set them up dont know what they are doing, they can't get disturbed, they often need replenished, etc. these are all things you dont need to worry about or even understand for a ssb. for the advanced person willing to take a risk, go ahead and do it. i know that i have very good success without them, i can keep manderins, jaw fish, gobies in my tank. i do not want the risk, i dont need it. my tank runs fine, the other tanks i have setup have no nitrates in them, they dont have to worry about their sand bed. why would the average hobbiest want to get involved with a DSB? there are alot of people that get into the hobby, setup a DSB (possibly incorrectly) because everyone said it was the best thing since sliced bread. next thing they know its a year later and their tank is having all sorts of issues and they can get it straightened out, so they just sell it all and give up. why would i want to push that option on someone without a lot of experience in the hobby? and again i come back to my main thought, if there is a chance it could cause a problem, and my tank will be fine without it, why would i want to do that?

 

[HBtank]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11956211#post11956211 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by frankrip
Zero evidence that plenums are more effective than DSB's at doing what? Can you show me this zero evidence?

I just had to

Lol, got me.

Here are some good reads though:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/6/aafeature

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/7/aafeature

The Waikiki Aquarium has done some large scale comparisons of the systems, as well.

 

[smoothdog]

datablitz, it's not my intention to push a DSB on anyone and I'm not knocking that you don't use them, or even suggest that you can't be quite successful without them, but to say don't use them because they might be a risk just seems dismissive. By that logic we really shouldn't keep aquariums at all because everything we put in them is a risk. All I'm saying is that before you do anything in your tank it should be well researched and planned out or it will have great potential to cause problems. As far as the 'average hobbyist', I consider myself and anyone else that actually likes to work on their own tank and figure out things for themselves to be one. I imagine that most people that come to you 'just like to look at the pretty fishies' and don't want to have to 'deal' with all the minute details of setup or didn't really know what they were getting into when they started but felt invested enough in it to hire someone (which is good for you, more $ ). e.i. if someone buys a fully built RC car and runs it in the street, would you call them a RC hobbyist?

 

[frankrip]

Good articles! Always instills confidence in a scientific research paper when the authors refer to a "BS detector" in their summary :eek1:

 

[HBtank]

I am sure they meant the degree....

 

[mjstover]

Alright so to sum everything up we will say that DSB Is good when used by the right person that knows what they are doing. It is not good for those new to the hobby or those who just dont want to take the chance. I am just wondering Those of you who do like the DSB say that people use it as a scape goat to there sudden tank problems and it really is a set up or husbandry problem. What are the main things to attend to when taking care of a DSB? Also are there and other poor DSB setups aside from not being thick enough or incorrect sand?

 

[jglackin]

I am using a DSB because I believe it is more natural and it helps to create a more natural ecosystem. Not only for nitrification, but also for growing critters and micro-critters. That is also why I use a turf scrubber. I don't have to have a turf scrubber, but I added it for removal of waste as well as for growing micro organisms. I have absolutely no algae problems in my tank, never have. I grossly over feed my tank with cyclop-eeze, nori, frozen food, pellet, flake, phyto, rotifers, Arcti-Pods, oyster eggs, you name it, and I have no issues. In the interest of full disclosure, I have had a nitrate problem (8 PPM) that seems to have corrected itself. My tank was only set up 9 months ago and I think the DSB and plenum are finally kicking in.

If I had the space and could do it over, I would do a RDSB for all of the same reasons, but free up all of the space in my tank for water volume for swimming and growing corals. Luckily, my tank is 36" deep.

 

[HBtank]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11963384#post11963384 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mjstover
Alright so to sum everything up we will say that DSB Is good when used by the right person that knows what they are doing. It is not good for those new to the hobby or those who just dont want to take the chance. I am just wondering Those of you who do like the DSB say that people use it as a scape goat to there sudden tank problems and it really is a set up or husbandry problem. What are the main things to attend to when taking care of a DSB? Also are there and other poor DSB setups aside from not being thick enough or incorrect sand?

Actually I do not think it is all that difficult at all...

The first article I posted at the beggining of this thread is a good read...


These are just my opinions, but:

#1 main thing for DSB's IMO is flow. In truth I think this is needed for any reef tank, but somewhere along the line it seems that people began thinking that BB tanks only need lots of flow. They all do... Maybe not at the exact same level, but it is not soemthing to skimp on. Every reef tank should be stuffed with as much flow as it can take IMO. It is the best addition to any tanks health. There are many benefits to flow. FOr example at its most basic level it drives your live rock filtration capacity... But I also think flow especially effects #2, and your ability to take advantage of export methods.

#2 would be good export. Again, I think people to often think this is limited to BB tanks etc... A good skimmer or use of refugium are very helpful. As well as keeping up a good schedule of waterchanges, like any tank. The addition of equipment or refugia or lack of this effects the choices in #3

#3 Stocking levels and feeding frequency. You are going to have to stock and feed according to your ability to export. Overfeeding, lack of flow and lack of export are really how those "unhealthy" beds are created. If you overstock and overfeed, and have a lack of #1 and #2, and then #4.. You got problems...

#4 Biodiversity. i.e. worms, pods, etc.. Initially this should be good with the appropriate amount of live rock or seeding with established live sand. That is why I put it last. Keeping it up is key. You can set up a refugium with a sand to help keep levels stable if you have fish that actively feed on sand infauna. You can add fresh live rock over time. You san re-seed with others live sand or kits. Many ways to do this.

Anyways, I do not think it is all that difficult. Really not much work at all. And all points are really considerations for any tank and substrate. Except for #4 and a BB tank, unless they have a RDSB. So it requires no more than other setups.

Again, that article I posted is great for getting started..

I personally think DSB give a level of stability that actually makes reef keeping easier for begginners. I think BB tanks are by far the setups that would need more expertise. Shallow sand beds are in-between IMO.