well, after tearing down a dozen tanks that were not doing well, or had other issues, removing the dsb, replacing it with a ssb, everything in the tank did better, some of these were over a year ago and the tank is doing amazing. no change in husbandry, just removal of the dsb, and the tank improves. i always hear about people not having problems, but i have still seen problems. i do water changes, denitrification is not a worry for me. i also dont worry about a dsb, because i dont have one. i dont have to worry about a powerhead falling and crashing my tank
How do we feel About Deep Sand Beds?
- Thread starter mjstover
- Start date
I suppose the word "unlikely" means never to you? And a partial quote does not give the whole story..."e.g. it has been reported that large pockets of organic material or large sand-burrowing animals could cause such a release and deaths due to this toxic gas (Shimek, pers. comm.)" And if you spent some time reading the other link I posted, the factors contributing to H2S development would be obvious.
And excuse my error for thinking that "Dangerous pockets of hydrogen sulfide and detrius "buildup" really are just myths..." leaves any room for H2S buildup in the sand bed.
I am not attacking DSB. H2S can occur in any sand bed.
And another thing...you keep editing your posts after I reply...that's not fair
And excuse my error for thinking that "Dangerous pockets of hydrogen sulfide and detrius "buildup" really are just myths..." leaves any room for H2S buildup in the sand bed.
I am not attacking DSB. H2S can occur in any sand bed.
And another thing...you keep editing your posts after I reply...that's not fair
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jglackin
New member
All you need for a DSB is enough sand to allow for anaerobic nitrificiation to take place. It needs to be deep enough to where it cannot be disturbed by sand critters and flow, but, as long as it goes anaerobic, it is going to do its job.
Regardless, disturbing a sand bed can be toxic. You moved a much smaller amount as a percentage of total water volume and you likely have a large skimmer that skimmed out a lot of the toxic matter in the water.
I have a DSB, so I obviously believe in them, but I have no illusions about there not being some downsides to consider when you have one.
Regardless, disturbing a sand bed can be toxic. You moved a much smaller amount as a percentage of total water volume and you likely have a large skimmer that skimmed out a lot of the toxic matter in the water.
I have a DSB, so I obviously believe in them, but I have no illusions about there not being some downsides to consider when you have one.
HBtank
Premium Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11950251#post11950251 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by frankrip
I suppose the word "unlikely" means never to you? And a partial quote does not give the whole story..."e.g. it has been reported that large pockets of organic material or large sand-burrowing animals could cause such a release and deaths due to this toxic gas (Shimek, pers. comm.)" And if you spent some time reading the other link I posted, the factors contributing to H2S development would be obvious.
And excuse my error for thinking that "Dangerous pockets of hydrogen sulfide and detrius "buildup" really are just myths..." leaves any room for H2S buildup in the sand bed.
I am not attacking DSB. H2S can occur in any sand bed.
And another thing...you keep editing your posts after I reply...that's not fair
"More imagined than real problems bedevil keepers of sand beds. The imagined problems are proposed by people who are ignorant of the sand bed dynamics. Among these imaginary problems are accumulations of hydrogen sulfide and detritus, and the need for sifting. Hydrogen sulfide will indeed be formed in the lowermost layers of a deep sand bed. It will NOT migrate up through the sediments to poison a tank. Hydrogen sulfide is an amazingly toxic gas, but that toxicity is exceeded by its pungent rotten-egg odor. The gas will have an exceptionally strong odor, and will seem overwhelming at levels well BELOW toxic amounts. If you can smell this stuff without it literally taking your breath away, it won't be at a harmful concentration. There is no real evidence to indicate that it may reach toxic levels in a deep sand bed."
-From the article I posted, from Shimeks website. Current as of 2006.
Seems we have a contradiction... Or a misquote by Borneman, as the true source of your quote, Shimek, obviously does not consider H2S in DSB to be of any harm to our tanks. And even if it was "released", to be at non-toxic levels.
BTW, you posted the same article twice, so I did not read the other one you mentioned.
HBtank
Premium Member
He details the chemistry great, but not the premise of whether or not H2S rises to toxic levels in DSB's in with proper husbandry and equipment. He has some anecdotal statements etc., but not to much more. His summary is to take these measures:
"1. Avoid burying organic materials under sand or rocks. This organic material decays, and that decay can drive the formation of hydrogen sulfide. Burying live rock under sand, for example, will likely kill many organisms and when they decay, H2S may be formed.
2. When using a denitrator, be careful not to set its flow too slow so that nitrate is eliminated and sulfate reduction takes over. The ORP in the denitrator may or may not be a useful guide here, depending on the setup.
3. Do not store live sand for extended periods without placing it in circulating aerated water.
4. Do not add organisms (such as certain fish) that dig up sand beds if there is significant potential for hydrogen sulfide release.
5. Be careful that equipment failures (such as a powerhead falling off the side of an aquarium onto the sand) will not disturb sand beds if sulfide deposits are suspected.
6. Do not stop the flow of aquarium water inside piping or other closed systems for more than an hour or two. If it is necessary to stop the flow for a longer time, collect the water rather than sending it back into the tank.
7. Do not store tank water or natural seawater without stirring and aeration for more than a few hours. Raw artificial seawater made with pure fresh water does not have this concern, as there are no organics in it to decay. It can be stored unstirred for as long as desired."
Of which all fall under proper husbandry, except number 4 and 5. those are the real concern.
The real question is if these toxic levels or "significant potential for hydrogen sulfide release" as Randy puts it, are formed in DSB's which are properly cared for and setup, which Shimek seems to think are not..
That is the heart of my debate, the assumption problems are created by DSB, regardless. Many believe this.
"1. Avoid burying organic materials under sand or rocks. This organic material decays, and that decay can drive the formation of hydrogen sulfide. Burying live rock under sand, for example, will likely kill many organisms and when they decay, H2S may be formed.
2. When using a denitrator, be careful not to set its flow too slow so that nitrate is eliminated and sulfate reduction takes over. The ORP in the denitrator may or may not be a useful guide here, depending on the setup.
3. Do not store live sand for extended periods without placing it in circulating aerated water.
4. Do not add organisms (such as certain fish) that dig up sand beds if there is significant potential for hydrogen sulfide release.
5. Be careful that equipment failures (such as a powerhead falling off the side of an aquarium onto the sand) will not disturb sand beds if sulfide deposits are suspected.
6. Do not stop the flow of aquarium water inside piping or other closed systems for more than an hour or two. If it is necessary to stop the flow for a longer time, collect the water rather than sending it back into the tank.
7. Do not store tank water or natural seawater without stirring and aeration for more than a few hours. Raw artificial seawater made with pure fresh water does not have this concern, as there are no organics in it to decay. It can be stored unstirred for as long as desired."
Of which all fall under proper husbandry, except number 4 and 5. those are the real concern.
The real question is if these toxic levels or "significant potential for hydrogen sulfide release" as Randy puts it, are formed in DSB's which are properly cared for and setup, which Shimek seems to think are not..
That is the heart of my debate, the assumption problems are created by DSB, regardless. Many believe this.
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carlso63
Reefkeeping since 1977
Solve the problem permanently :
Install a plenum under that DSB !!!
BTW - for "data" related to this whole issue of Hydro Sulfide / DSBS / plenums, look no further than the 2007 Marine & Reefkeeping Annual , which had a very interesting article that stated as it's conclusion (paraphrasing here) =
"When examining the DSBs of 7 different large reef display aquariums at the Waikkiki Public Aquarium, we found clear evidence of at least some HS2 formation in every DSB we examined; however, when we examined 5 separate plenumed display reefs - 3 equipped with DSBs in addition to the plenum structure - we found no evidence of any HS2 formation within any of the plenumed sandbeds, DSB or SSB..."
Read it yourself.
Recent data, well explained and supported by science.
Good enough for me
Install a plenum under that DSB !!!
BTW - for "data" related to this whole issue of Hydro Sulfide / DSBS / plenums, look no further than the 2007 Marine & Reefkeeping Annual , which had a very interesting article that stated as it's conclusion (paraphrasing here) =
"When examining the DSBs of 7 different large reef display aquariums at the Waikkiki Public Aquarium, we found clear evidence of at least some HS2 formation in every DSB we examined; however, when we examined 5 separate plenumed display reefs - 3 equipped with DSBs in addition to the plenum structure - we found no evidence of any HS2 formation within any of the plenumed sandbeds, DSB or SSB..."
Read it yourself.
Recent data, well explained and supported by science.
Good enough for me
smoothdog
Active member
I think I see a pattern here, people that don't have the know how or inclination to fix the problem in their tanks hire you to maintain the tank, based on your recommendation the DSB is removed but now you are maintaining the tank so proper husbandry is maintained and the tank thrives. This happens over and over so it must be the sand bed and not the husbandry.
I'm just curious, have you ever started a tank yourself with a PROPERLY set up DSB (5-6in deep, made up of all or mostly oolitic sand so that detritus cannot settle down into the sandbed) and practiced proper husbandry and still had problems or have you always had the opinion that DSBs are bad and just eliminated them and dismissed them as the problem?
ReefTECK
New member
In fact, this is exactly what Anthony Calfo claims H2S pockets look like in Vol 4 Issue 3 CORAL Magazine:
"it becomes obvious that the interior layers of the sand bed are still as clean and odorless as on the first day. A healthy sand bed will remain in this condition for years and years. I have, for example, moved a nine year old 260 gallon aquarium with two small reef sharks and discovered that the sand was absolutely clean without a scent: a truly healthy sand bed. Dark, almost black spots and regions that smell of sulfur however, indicated hydrogen sulfide which is dangerous and should be avoided at all cost. This can best be don by not overpopulating the aquarium."
Jova
New member
When I first set up my tank, I went with a 6" DSB. The folks at Inland Aquatics recommended it, and they have a DSB in every tank in their establishment. I've had this DSB for 7 years now, and it is now colored by many different types of coraline algea. But this thread now has me concerned, since I am getting ready to upgrade to a 75 gallon tank, adding a sump underneath. The original plan was to just scoop out the DSB, put it into the 75 and add some fresh aragonite sand to make up for the difference of the larger tank, keeping the DSB at 6" in the new tank. What I'm wondering now is what problems may arise by disturbing and moving the DSB. But as for the original question of this thread, I've always loved my DSB and have never felt that it caused any problems. But if anyone has any suggestions on what to do as far as MOVING it goes, please chime in
jglackin
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11952991#post11952991 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jova
When I first set up my tank, I went with a 6" DSB. The folks at Inland Aquatics recommended it, and they have a DSB in every tank in their establishment. I've had this DSB for 7 years now, and it is now colored by many different types of coraline algea. But this thread now has me concerned, since I am getting ready to upgrade to a 75 gallon tank, adding a sump underneath. The original plan was to just scoop out the DSB, put it into the 75 and add some fresh aragonite sand to make up for the difference of the larger tank, keeping the DSB at 6" in the new tank. What I'm wondering now is what problems may arise by disturbing and moving the DSB. But as for the original question of this thread, I've always loved my DSB and have never felt that it caused any problems. But if anyone has any suggestions on what to do as far as MOVING it goes, please chime in
I set up my DSB based on advice from Inland Aquatics. I also started my turf scrubber with macro from their seed stock. I also added a plenum under my 6" DSB and have had no issue, but then, my tank has only been up since July.
As far as a DSB set up with only oolitic sand, smoothdog, I disagree. I have a plenum with a layer of coarse aragonite (pea sized) spread over it for about 2". I then have a 2" layer of coarse sand over that, then a layer of screen and 2" more of the course sand over that. Then I top off the sand bed with a 2" layer of finer sand (can't remember the grade, but not the finest). I'll stack this DSB up against any DSB anywhere.
In other words, my DSB can beat up your DSB.
HBtank
Premium Member
Black spots that smell of sulfur definitely can be H2S. I think this is very rare, and even if black, far from definate....
Anyways, I never even went that far, I only referred to dark patches... The kind everyone has. If it is truely solid black, well then care is advised.
I see you did say black in your original post. You are technically correct for possible identification of H2S, though I think this generally leads to false ID's of H2S... I do think in the context of your post you say it in a way that perpetuated this exact misconception... You made it sound common, even standard.. Which is not true, but dark patches and discoloration ARE standard.
Its confusing the issue....
It IS the common assumption that all dark spots and discoloration on the sides of the glass are H2S or detrius, because of posts like that.
Lets see what else Anthony Calfo has to say on the subject:
Anthony Calfo, The Natural Marine Aquarium - Reef Invertebrates, Pg. 34
"Contrary to popular misconception, the discoloration of sand visible substratum through the glass is not dangerous anaerobic activity or even indicative of any other organisms spread throughout the rest of the sand bed. The "colors" most often are simply algae and other micro-organisms flourishing in the thin layer between the glass and sand from direct or refracted light through the aquarium"
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