How Do You Feel About UV Sterilizers

Well, I don't know enough about ozone exposure to really say. All I know is it seems like a lot more babysitting than simply changing a bulb a couple times a year. :) You have your air drying, ORP monitoring, carbon filtering, blah blah. Of course, there are risks with UV - number one being that you don't want water to leak into the bulb housing. Fire could result, but most likely the socket just fries and your bulb goes dead requiring new bulb and socket. Don't ask me how I know this. :D

Also, the oxidizing effects of a UV bulb aren't nearly what can be accomplished with ozone. There are more like "residual" oxidizing efects due to UV exposure. In that sense, ozone gives you more of what it's supposed to do, but that's all it does. UV has multiple modes of action beyond producing radical oxygen and you can't OD - that is, unless you're trying to preserve every drop of life in your tank. :)
 
I do not believe that UV and ozone in the hands of normal reef aqaurists accomplish the same things at all.

A UV will not clear the water of yellowing molecules very effectively and ozone will not clear much in the way of pathogens in a typical aquarist setup.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6969995#post6969995 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
A UV will not clear the water of yellowing molecules very effectively

Really? Randy, I haven't run carbon in 18 months (since I added the UV) and I'd put the clarity of my water up against anyone's. :)
So it's either UV, wet skimming, or lack of a sandbed - or a combination of. I'd put most of my money on the UV.

The residual oxidizing effects of UV light are well documented. Or so I have read... ;)
 
Well, many people say that until they try ozone. Myself included. It really does make the water clearer in many cases, even if they think it is already very clear. That doesn't mean that I necessarily recommend it. Only that it is far more effective if water clarity is the goal.

OTOH, I've not heard heard many people claim their water became less yellow after initiating UV. Sure, you can wipe out bacterial blooms, algae blooms, etc. But you cannot remove yellow organic molecules by UV. Most organic materials exposed to UV become more yellow, not less yellow. That is why special protective compounds are put into organic polymers exposed to UV to keep them from yellowing.

I show the chemistry behind making water clearer with ozone in this article:

Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 1: Chemistry and Biochemistry
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-03/rhf/index.php
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6970033#post6970033 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by G-money
I'd put the clarity of my water up against anyone's. :)

You're on.. :p

91795reflec2.jpg


J/K.. I just wanted people to see my water.
 
I would agree with G-Money on that point.

After removing my UV [when I went on vacation, wanted things simpler for tank-sitter] a few months back - I was suprised at how much more discolored my water was after discontinuing UV use.

As I was also very suprised after starting UV use that all my water-change water came out with only minimal discoloration vs. before UV use. As well as clarity in tank - but I was suprised to slack on water changes and still be pulling significantly clearer water after adding a UV.

Can't explain it, but it was clear as day IME.
 
Do you skim heavily? Maybe there is little dissolved organic material there to begin with, and all that remains is circulating bacteria/phytoplankton.
 
Yes I do ... but I did before that. I dunno, but I felt like there was an obvious, blatant difference before vs. after in my tank.

The explanation for why, I'm not sure about ... just positive about my anecdotal experience ;)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6970078#post6970078 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
Well, many people say that until they try ozone. Myself included. It really does make the water clearer in many cases, even if they think it is already very clear. That doesn't mean that I necessarily recommend it. Only that it is far more effective if water clarity is the goal.

OTOH, I've not heard heard many people claim their water became less yellow after initiating UV. Sure, you can wipe out bacterial blooms, algae blooms, etc. But you cannot remove yellow organic molecules by UV. Most organic materials exposed to UV become more yellow, not less yellow. That is why special protective compounds are put into organic polymers exposed to UV to keep them from yellowing.

I show the chemistry behind making water clearer with ozone in this article:

Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 1: Chemistry and Biochemistry
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-03/rhf/index.php

Randy,

I suppose the clarity of my tank is moot unless you see it in person, but it is indeed lacking any yellowing.

If UV light possesses some oxidation effects, what prevents it from doing exactly what ozone does, albeit on a smaller and slower scale? If we assume buildup of these yellowing compounds is bad for corals (not just unsightly), why wouldn't I see cumulative effects after 18 months? Surely 18 months of relying on skimming to remove them is ample time to allow them to build up - like they would in a tank w/out ozone or carbon. They simply are not there.

Also, ozone does nothing to combat biological blooms so to speak and will not remove phyto. Therefore, all it can do is remove the yellowing compunds - any biological matter is still there unless it's skimmed - unlike a UV which can do something with "blooms". With that, I'd argue that UV has the potential to remove any and all things too small to be realistically filtered - and give you the clearest water possible.
 
I do not doubt that there are many circumstances where there is a lot of suspended algae or bacteria in which case using a UV may well make the water clearer.

There may also be some circumstance where a UV might cause the bleaching of certain pigments in water. But there are many reports in the scientific literature where ozone is compared to UV (and the combination) and it is typically found that ozone or the combination is far more effective at removing colored compounds from water.

In general, a UV sterilizer does not provide the same water clarity effects as ozone. In his book "Seawater Aquariums: The Captive Environment ", Stephen Spotte has an extensive discussion of the use of UV and ozone in aquaria. In the ozone section there is discussion of the decoloration of the water by reacting with certain compounds in the water. There is no such mention in the lengthy UV sterilizer section, and n fact, he notes that dissolved organics are a problem when using UV because they absorb the light before it has a chance to get to the organisms that folks want to kill.

In these directions on how to make the most of a UV sterilizer, the specific recommendation is (with my bolding):

http://www.qualitymarineusa.com/drygoods/uv.html

"5. THE DEGREE OF UVc PENETRATION:
The effective depth of penetration of UVc in water is controlled by the following factors:
RADIANCE DISTANCE:
Complete UVc penetration in clean, clear seawater is limited to a radius of approximately 5 mm. from the lamp and this must be considered in the design of the radiation chamber.

WATER CLARITY (Color and Turbidity):
Colored water and turbid water both reduce the penetration of the UVc rays in the radiation chamber.
Dissolved organic compounds (phenolic and other organic dyes) cause aged aquarium water to become yellow. Color removal is best accomplished by the use of ozone (ozone oxidation) in a protein skimmer, or by filtration through high quality activated carbon.
All water should be prefiltered before entering the radiation chamber of a UV Sterilizer to remove suspended materials in turbid water."




In general, it is observed that tanks using a UV often benefit from using ozone if the goal is water clarity. Folks using both often added the ozone to clear the water because the UV alone isn't adequate. Here are some quotes from folks we know.

from Anthony Calfo:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-08/ac/feature/index.php

"
By comparison, we can look to some of the thorough research done on UV sterilizers to determine their efficacy (it is critical to pump only highly polished water through these units if they are to be effective at all). A pervasive problem that aquarists commonly face is water clarity, or discoloration to the water. How many hobbyists would you guess use ozone full-time to maintain optimal water clarity? How many aquarists change small amounts of carbon weekly instead of monthly (to prevent light shock or stress)? Some folks use no chemical media or ozone at all! I'm not saying that you need carbon or ozone to maintain optimum water clarity, but short of large and frequent water changes, there really is no practical alternative. Although your water may not look particularly yellow or discolored, rest assured that even a slight discoloration after a few weeks can reduce the penetration of light. "


from Steve Tyree:
http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/html/tyree1.html

"The UV modules help keep the water born bacterial levels to the normal seawater concentrations found on natural pristine reefs. We also have added a very small amount of ozone to help clarify the water. I do not consider these two additions, UV sterilizers and passive Ozone use, to be abnormal additions to a captive reef system. They are used extensively in large public aquariums and I recommend their limited use on all the Berlin /systems I currently consult on and setup. The main reason these two additions are required is to break down the coral slime Reef Building Stony corals release and to prevent bacterial buildups due to this slime. Ozone is and option in tanks I consult on and is primarily used to help clarify the water which increases upper UV-A and violet light penetration. "
"
 
"At Aqua Ultravioletรƒฦ’"ลกรƒโ€šร‚ยฎ, we chose to use ozone-emitting lamps......."

I've used both UV (Aqua brand) and ozone (Enaly); separately and together. The UV, which I bought first, removed the yellow coloration and kept the water crystal clear. The water changes into a white 5 gallon salt bucket came out blue instead of yellow. After adding the ozone and removing the UV, nothing changed visibly. After removing the ozone, it was back to yellow water. The UV is much safer in my opinion, but it can raise the tank temp slightly if using a larger model.

The clarity of the water when using UV could have come from an "ozone-emitting lamp" I guess (?). I prefer the particular brand of UV sterilizer I run over the ozone generator......it takes up a little more space though.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6975192#post6975192 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley

from Steve Tyree:
http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/html/tyree1.html

"The UV modules help keep the water born bacterial levels to the normal seawater concentrations found on natural pristine reefs. We also have added a very small amount of ozone to help clarify the water. I do not consider these two additions, UV sterilizers and passive Ozone use, to be abnormal additions to a captive reef system. They are used extensively in large public aquariums and I recommend their limited use on all the Berlin /systems I currently consult on and setup. The main reason these two additions are required is to break down the coral slime Reef Building Stony corals release and to prevent bacterial buildups due to this slime. Ozone is and option in tanks I consult on and is primarily used to help clarify the water which increases upper UV-A and violet light penetration. "
"

Steve Tyree also says this in his "Report and Summary"....

"One would expect the Ecosystem Filtration System to also suffer from a yellowing of the water, since it lacks a protein skimmer and carbon. We only recently added ozone for minor water clarification and no yellowing was perceptible to the human eye prior to its addition. In the separate aquaria where the Caulerpa is housed, a layer of fine silt or mud is found along the bottom. It is in this area where I believe most of the organics are being broken down in a manner similar to that which takes place in the Jaubert Plenum."


Since they "only recently added ozone"....., maybe the UV, which was already running on the system, was keeping the water clear and not a "layer of fine silt or mud".
 
I've used both UV (Aqua brand) and ozone (Enaly); separately and together.

Well, I guess different folks have different experiences. Perhaps the effect from a UV is adequate in some aquaria, especially when the complications of differing amounts of yellowing organic input, GAC, skimming, UV and ozone are happening. :)
 
Would you agree to the possibility that breaking organic bonds may confer a more "skimmable" conformation of the resulting products?

Maybe. It depends on how it is broken, but I believe that ozone oxidation makes most organics less skimmable, not more so. And most folks observe that these days, although in the past, perhaps with different types of skimmers or other husbandry differences, people often saw more skimmate production with ozone.

What it does do is make the organics more biodegradeable and taken up by bacteria. The bacteria or their waste products can then be skimmed out. If a similar thing happens with UV oxidation, then there is no need to invoke UV breaking a C-O-P bond.

I discuss that issue with respect to ozone here:

Oxidation of Organics by Ozone: Skimming and Nutrients
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-03/rhf/index.php#11
 
Since you guys seem to know alot more than I do regarding these issues, What size, type of ozone and UV would you suggest on a 120 fowlr?
 
I do not buy the un_yellowing of water with UV at all, when comparied to ozone, unless one is using a UV O3 bulb. Does or can UV do things to organics in water, yes. This is shown from my old explosives background. In reef tanks, it is still an unknown. And the below is not just UV but UV and H2O2

Have a nice read :D

http://www.frtr.gov/matrix2/section4/4-45.html

Just UV

UV-photolysis is the process by which chemical bonds of the contaminants are broken by the energy associated with UV light. When light is incident on an object, the photons may be reflected, transmitted, or absorbed. When UV photons enter a medium (water, for example), they are both transmitted and absorbed by the medium and its constituents (dissolved species including organic and inorganic substances). Photons that are absorbed may initiate a photolysis reaction. A contaminant molecule will undergo the photolysis reaction if the contaminant molecules in water are capable of absorbing UV photons (measured by the contaminant's molar absorption coefficient) and if the energy holding the chemical bonds in the molecule together is less than the energy of the UV photons absorbed.

http://www.millipore.com/publications.nsf/docs/5a5j28

Some good questions with answers
http://www.iuva.org/public/faqs.php
 
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Thanks for the info Randy and Boomer. :)

I realize my "evidence" is anecdotal, but it is evidence nonetheless. I do not have an O3 emitting bulb to my knowledge, so I don't know what's preventing my water from yellowing. I assumed it was UV, since I'd get some discoloration back in the carbon days and I'd know it was time to change it out.

Even in a sand-free tank, without any other means of direct organic removal (carbon) or breakdown (ozone), I'd think I'd see some yellow in the water considering I only change about 5 gallons every 10 days. Something's degrading and/or taking them out...

I have the advantage of seeing my tank through all 4 sides if I want. White paper looks as white through the long side of the tank as it does right in front of my nose.
 
While I'm not saying your water isn't perfectly colorless (the paper comparison is a good one if the tank is long enough), let me just pass along my experience with O3. Before I started O3, I would have said my water was plenty colorless (presumably from skimming and GAC).

Some clarity increase was seemingly apparent on starting O3, but not hugely dramatic. If I wasn't looking for it I might have missed it. Some folks that I've talked to saw no effect, and some saw a lot. To actually demonstrate the effect for an upcoming article I had to take a picture down the 4 foot length of the tank of a white piece of plastic before and after.

So my only point is that tanks can have pretty clear water without ozone (or UV), and consequently it can sometimes be hard to say in advance by looking at the tank whether O3 might make any visual impact or not (with or without UV) already in use.

The corollary is, I wonder how yellow your water would get (by eye) without the UV. Are you saying the you know when to change the bulb by the yellowness of the water, and that it clears up on changing the bulb?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6968458#post6968458 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NoSchwag
There is no NEED for a uv, again ask weatherman.

Hey! Keep me out of this! :D

Just because I called them "glorified water heaters" doesn't mean I don't think they are needed (under certain circumstances).

I just don't think my little tanks, with their small, stable fish population, need them.
 

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