How much do you get for your ocellaris?
- Thread starter slevesque
- Start date
JHardman
Premium Member
There are a couple of things at work here that would prevent you from using all of these points at most LFS.
Most LFS do not QT fish, rather they are WC or CB from the hatchery. So for most you are not saving them anything by eliminating QT or meds costs. Most wholesalers/hatcherys include a few extra fish for DOA.
And most important, LFS are about the cheapest, penny'pinching'est SOBs that walk the face of the earth!
mwp
In Memoriam
Having been on both sides of the fence, here are some things to keep in mind when considering that you're a "private breeder" vs. a typical lifestock supplier.
Cash Flow - a lot of LFS work with a budget, usually pretty tight. The sometimes have to meet minimum orders with livestock suppliers, or at the very least, they know how much they have to spend to make an order worthwhile. As a private breeder, you're trying to gain access to a portion of that budget. Buying $100 or $200 from you may force the LFS to postpone a typical standing order, or put them in a lesser discount level etc.
Quantities and Selection - Unfortunately, it's not like they can get EVERYTHING they need from 1 private individual. Most shops don't want 20, 30, 50 or more of any one thing...they may really want 3 to 6 at a time, delivered as needed. As a private breeder, you can't provide that. Show up with 25 Ocellaris and you're gonna have to take a bite on the price.
Timing - how many private breeders can make a delivery run on a weekday, i.e. 11:00 AM, or 2:00 PM. The last thing a LFS manager wants to do is be putting fish away at 6:30 PM in the evening when his shop is most likely to be full of customers.
Your "Quality" as a "business - let's face it, if you're just some guy walking in off the street peddling fish, NO ONE is going to take you seriously and pay you serious cash. Most LFS look at a private breeder and feel they are doing YOU a FAVOR by taking your EXTRA fish off your hands. You're gonna get beat up on price there too.
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Solutions - there are some things you can do to make yourself more marketable.
Become a real business - yes, letterhead, logo, business cards etc. There are also tax considerations that may or may not be beneficial to you. I.e. for a while I turned my Orchid Hobby into a small Orchid Breeding Business - our first year we had sales approaching 30K, but when tax time came and all the expenditures were laid out, actual profits according to the IRS tallied up to around $500. I must say I never sold so many baby orchids, but on the flipside the amount of effort I put in hardly made the "business" financially viable. But I DIDN'T have ANY problems moving plants and getting a GOOD price and was RESPECTED by my clients. The moral I guess is that you have to find a good balance here, but you have to present yourself as more than just some hobbyist who's gone a bit nuts.
Expand your selection - don't just breed Ocellaris, breed other items that have demand as well. Not sure what those might be, but if a breeder is periodically offering 10 different items, a LFS is much more likely to buy than if you're just the "occelaris" guy.
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Those are my thoughts, having been at literally every side of the industry from Retail to Wholesale to small Hatchery. On the retail side, breeders were a VALUED resource because the quality was USUALLY excellent and the price was VERY VERY LOW.
There's a reason I sat at many a fish auction buying box after box of fish that no one in the "club" was bidding on - I knew full well that the retail value of some of those things was 20X what I was paying.
Bottom line - if you look like a private breeder, act like a private breeder, and sell like a private breeder, you'll get walked all over like a private breeder. So be a professional, be a real business, offer a fair selection and don't give in and sell cheaply - it will take longer but ultimately you'll be a valued source vs. that clownfish guy who brings us cheap occellaris once in a while.
Just my $0.02
MP
Cash Flow - a lot of LFS work with a budget, usually pretty tight. The sometimes have to meet minimum orders with livestock suppliers, or at the very least, they know how much they have to spend to make an order worthwhile. As a private breeder, you're trying to gain access to a portion of that budget. Buying $100 or $200 from you may force the LFS to postpone a typical standing order, or put them in a lesser discount level etc.
Quantities and Selection - Unfortunately, it's not like they can get EVERYTHING they need from 1 private individual. Most shops don't want 20, 30, 50 or more of any one thing...they may really want 3 to 6 at a time, delivered as needed. As a private breeder, you can't provide that. Show up with 25 Ocellaris and you're gonna have to take a bite on the price.
Timing - how many private breeders can make a delivery run on a weekday, i.e. 11:00 AM, or 2:00 PM. The last thing a LFS manager wants to do is be putting fish away at 6:30 PM in the evening when his shop is most likely to be full of customers.
Your "Quality" as a "business - let's face it, if you're just some guy walking in off the street peddling fish, NO ONE is going to take you seriously and pay you serious cash. Most LFS look at a private breeder and feel they are doing YOU a FAVOR by taking your EXTRA fish off your hands. You're gonna get beat up on price there too.
------
Solutions - there are some things you can do to make yourself more marketable.
Become a real business - yes, letterhead, logo, business cards etc. There are also tax considerations that may or may not be beneficial to you. I.e. for a while I turned my Orchid Hobby into a small Orchid Breeding Business - our first year we had sales approaching 30K, but when tax time came and all the expenditures were laid out, actual profits according to the IRS tallied up to around $500. I must say I never sold so many baby orchids, but on the flipside the amount of effort I put in hardly made the "business" financially viable. But I DIDN'T have ANY problems moving plants and getting a GOOD price and was RESPECTED by my clients. The moral I guess is that you have to find a good balance here, but you have to present yourself as more than just some hobbyist who's gone a bit nuts.
Expand your selection - don't just breed Ocellaris, breed other items that have demand as well. Not sure what those might be, but if a breeder is periodically offering 10 different items, a LFS is much more likely to buy than if you're just the "occelaris" guy.
-----
Those are my thoughts, having been at literally every side of the industry from Retail to Wholesale to small Hatchery. On the retail side, breeders were a VALUED resource because the quality was USUALLY excellent and the price was VERY VERY LOW.
There's a reason I sat at many a fish auction buying box after box of fish that no one in the "club" was bidding on - I knew full well that the retail value of some of those things was 20X what I was paying.
Bottom line - if you look like a private breeder, act like a private breeder, and sell like a private breeder, you'll get walked all over like a private breeder. So be a professional, be a real business, offer a fair selection and don't give in and sell cheaply - it will take longer but ultimately you'll be a valued source vs. that clownfish guy who brings us cheap occellaris once in a while.
Just my $0.02
MP
mwp
In Memoriam
OH, BTW, most managers / owners of LFS (aka. the actual Decisions Makers) usually do NOT breed or produce anything themselves and usually don't have ANY interest in doing so...they really just want to make money. So while the retail clerk or guy who places the orders every week (usually a rabid hobbyist himself) may be very interested in what you're offering, his "boss" may not feel the same way!
From the "boss'" point of view, a breeder is just another rabidly addicted hobbyist...someone to make yet more money off of than the folks who come in and buy their first aquarium. LFS guys also tend to view private breeders as a TIME DRAIN...a guy who comes in and chats way too long and isn't going to buy stuff 'cause he gets it online or through his club or whatever. Either way, if you're a private breeder, you won't walk in there and get a ton of respect from your potential client, the LFS.
If you present yourself as a BUSINESS, well, they view you as a business and WILL treat you a bit differently. But then again, the LFS usually tries to beat up on the suppliers for price whenever they can...so you're not out of the woods, but taking the high road DOES help with the perception of improved quality and value.
Be willing to have a nicely formatted pricelist, offer quantity discounts (i.e. when I ran the Cichlid hatchery we typically went from a price each, to dozen, to "Box" lot (usually 25)..the discount from ea. to dozen was often $0.50 ea., whereas 25+ was a substantial discount from the price each, often 25% or more). While there's no way you're gonna have a basement operation of 400+ tanks and 200+ species on the list, you're still better off like some of the angelfish and discus breeders who may have had 5 or 6 quality strains, provided a printed receipt etc. They never edge out the suppliers, but they often became the vendor of preference for those key items. Another angelfish guy comes along...usually regardless they were simply turned away.
FWIW,
MP
From the "boss'" point of view, a breeder is just another rabidly addicted hobbyist...someone to make yet more money off of than the folks who come in and buy their first aquarium. LFS guys also tend to view private breeders as a TIME DRAIN...a guy who comes in and chats way too long and isn't going to buy stuff 'cause he gets it online or through his club or whatever. Either way, if you're a private breeder, you won't walk in there and get a ton of respect from your potential client, the LFS.
If you present yourself as a BUSINESS, well, they view you as a business and WILL treat you a bit differently. But then again, the LFS usually tries to beat up on the suppliers for price whenever they can...so you're not out of the woods, but taking the high road DOES help with the perception of improved quality and value.
Be willing to have a nicely formatted pricelist, offer quantity discounts (i.e. when I ran the Cichlid hatchery we typically went from a price each, to dozen, to "Box" lot (usually 25)..the discount from ea. to dozen was often $0.50 ea., whereas 25+ was a substantial discount from the price each, often 25% or more). While there's no way you're gonna have a basement operation of 400+ tanks and 200+ species on the list, you're still better off like some of the angelfish and discus breeders who may have had 5 or 6 quality strains, provided a printed receipt etc. They never edge out the suppliers, but they often became the vendor of preference for those key items. Another angelfish guy comes along...usually regardless they were simply turned away.
FWIW,
MP
mwp
In Memoriam
Yes, I'm on a rant but hopefully all of these observations and thoughts will be helpful to some of you.
Regarding selection - if you can't do it yourself, co-op it. Find other local marine breeders who are doing something other than yourself, and consider banding together. It could be helpful for both of you.
FWIW,
Matt
Regarding selection - if you can't do it yourself, co-op it. Find other local marine breeders who are doing something other than yourself, and consider banding together. It could be helpful for both of you.
FWIW,
Matt
NicoleC
New member
There's another solution -- build good relationships with LFS' as a customer first. I have several LFS that I have spent years building a relationship with; it pays back in so many ways as a hobbiest and is good for the store, too. If you don't nickel and dime them every day, when you have a big purchase they will try to match cheaper online prices for you.
When they found out I was trying to breed gobies they asked ME about buying my fish and offered fair prices at 50% of what they expected to retail at. That was for YWG's, which I unfortunately have no sellable quantities of, but I already have a local LFS chain interested in my clowns -- and they have never dealt with TR fish before.
I won't be able to begin to supply enough fish to them, as they also run a good sized online business. (Morgan, let me know if you want to start dealing with a retail client and getting more money than that other guy gives you.) But I have smaller boutique shops who deal mostly with high-end corals that I may approach with small quanties of clowns (all three of which are interested in YWG's). I suspect they will be happy to have a local supplier willing to cater to the smaller quantities they need, instead of needing to place a minimum order at ORA which is too big for their business.
When they found out I was trying to breed gobies they asked ME about buying my fish and offered fair prices at 50% of what they expected to retail at. That was for YWG's, which I unfortunately have no sellable quantities of, but I already have a local LFS chain interested in my clowns -- and they have never dealt with TR fish before.
I won't be able to begin to supply enough fish to them, as they also run a good sized online business. (Morgan, let me know if you want to start dealing with a retail client and getting more money than that other guy gives you.) But I have smaller boutique shops who deal mostly with high-end corals that I may approach with small quanties of clowns (all three of which are interested in YWG's). I suspect they will be happy to have a local supplier willing to cater to the smaller quantities they need, instead of needing to place a minimum order at ORA which is too big for their business.
MWP: You have a good vision of what should a business oriented breeder do. Having 5 or more breeding species at once seems to be quite a full time job to me. I might be wrong, maybe there is some large scale time savings. When I first ask the question I had in mind a small home based sideline money, 100-300$ profits a month. Enough to pay for the main display and future expansion. Now, even, this little money seems hard to get 
.
After shopping around when I entered the hobby, comparing DIY with plug-and-play equipement, I realized profit margings where quite high in the industrie. At least it was my impression. I have been shocked by the Caribsea Aragonite 10x more expenssive than the exact same southdown-yardright playsand. Same with the HQI or VHO canopies. Tank plumbing! How come a pvc bulkhead is so pricey? I guess it's the price to pay to have all those products in one shop, instead of having to drive around the city. But man, what a rip off. If it says reef on it, double the price. Sorry for this, just had to let it out.
After this, I had no expectation of getting more than 50% of the retail price for my fishes. I would have been happy with 50%. But 25-35% sounds a bit unrespectfull of the breeder's time and efforts, even if he or she is doing it for the love of it and not looking for profits.
I probably don't have sharp enough teeth to be a succesfull businessman so if I join the breeder's club I'll work on the friendly and respectfull approach NICOLEC suggested.
.After shopping around when I entered the hobby, comparing DIY with plug-and-play equipement, I realized profit margings where quite high in the industrie. At least it was my impression. I have been shocked by the Caribsea Aragonite 10x more expenssive than the exact same southdown-yardright playsand. Same with the HQI or VHO canopies. Tank plumbing! How come a pvc bulkhead is so pricey? I guess it's the price to pay to have all those products in one shop, instead of having to drive around the city. But man, what a rip off. If it says reef on it, double the price. Sorry for this, just had to let it out.
After this, I had no expectation of getting more than 50% of the retail price for my fishes. I would have been happy with 50%. But 25-35% sounds a bit unrespectfull of the breeder's time and efforts, even if he or she is doing it for the love of it and not looking for profits.
I probably don't have sharp enough teeth to be a succesfull businessman so if I join the breeder's club I'll work on the friendly and respectfull approach NICOLEC suggested.
mwp
In Memoriam
Indeed, all very true Slevesque. I will tell ya, if you set up a basement operation correctly, there are QUITE a bit of time saving features in routine maintenance. In some respects, it doesn't take more work to have your phyto cultures as 5 or 10 gallon cultures vs. 2 liter cultures.
Like everything else, there are some economies of scale.
Regarding the precentage of retail you'll be able to get for your fish, don't ever expect anything more than 33%. Standard MINIMUM markup in every shop I ever worked in was wholesale price X 3, but the SKY is the limit. So, if tank raised clowns are being sold in your area for $20, all of a sudden $6.50 is the most you can realistically ever expect. But then all those other items I mentioned come into play. $5 per clownfish is honestly a very reasonable offer from a shop.
Consider Labidochromis caeruleus. From the wholesalers we might pay as much as $5 or more at 1-1.5". I had a breeder who brought them in 1-2 dozen at a time but around 0.75", but I only paid $1.00 each cash or $2.00 each store credit. Of course, if it's an off season at an auction, I was able to pick them up as cheaply as $0.20 each.
Again, you can take or leave as much of that advice and info as you want. Nicole's suggestion is great, especially if your rearing isn't all that productive. But lets just say you all of a sudden find yourself having to find homes for 200 clownfish - your buddy buddy shop owner is STILL not going to have $100k to pony up. Expect to take a huge hit or have to shop 'em around to other stores, and well, being more "business like", more professional, may help your chances and keep those prices up.
Good luck!
Matt
Like everything else, there are some economies of scale.
Regarding the precentage of retail you'll be able to get for your fish, don't ever expect anything more than 33%. Standard MINIMUM markup in every shop I ever worked in was wholesale price X 3, but the SKY is the limit. So, if tank raised clowns are being sold in your area for $20, all of a sudden $6.50 is the most you can realistically ever expect. But then all those other items I mentioned come into play. $5 per clownfish is honestly a very reasonable offer from a shop.
Consider Labidochromis caeruleus. From the wholesalers we might pay as much as $5 or more at 1-1.5". I had a breeder who brought them in 1-2 dozen at a time but around 0.75", but I only paid $1.00 each cash or $2.00 each store credit. Of course, if it's an off season at an auction, I was able to pick them up as cheaply as $0.20 each.
Again, you can take or leave as much of that advice and info as you want. Nicole's suggestion is great, especially if your rearing isn't all that productive. But lets just say you all of a sudden find yourself having to find homes for 200 clownfish - your buddy buddy shop owner is STILL not going to have $100k to pony up. Expect to take a huge hit or have to shop 'em around to other stores, and well, being more "business like", more professional, may help your chances and keep those prices up.
Good luck!
Matt
David M
New member
Tommy, it is inevitable, we saw the same thing happen with tropical birds in the 80's. I see three scenarios;
1) legislation puts an outright ban on importation (probably not likely in the near future).
2) Overfishing and habitat destruction eliminate the supply ( would take time but (1) will intervene before total destruction).
Finally, and most likely 3) Costs will rise to the point where wild collection is no longer profitable vrs captive breeding. This will happen because of (2), collectors clear out the easiest and most accessable areas first. Eventually they will have to move on (like locusts
) to other areas that have less infrastructure and are more remote. This means costs rise and mortality increases due to added transportation stress. That translates to higher wholesale/ retail prices. It's already happened with orchid & arabian dottybacks, cb are wholesaling at 1/3 the price of wild caught fish. There will be many species that we simply cannot breed but prices will make them available only to the wealthy, if at all. A black market may emerge as well, you'd be shocked at how easy it is to find pihrana or walking catfish in California where both fish are highly illegal. My guess is you'll see a trend in the hobby to focus on "species" tanks where people keep a colony of clowns and a big anem or something like that. JMO but I'd lay money on it. Actually I have laid money on it, about $20K to date
Tommyc
Member
David,
Don't get me wrong. I agree with everything you said and am intimately familiar with the results of the ban on importation of birds (have bred african grays, lovebirds, etc in the past...started in '80). I'm sure it's just a matter of time.
Was just wondering about Ed's choice of words.....the written statement is frequently harder to understand than a verbal statement. When I read his line I inferred a tone of impending certainty as if Ed knows something I don't (well...that's a given when it comes to mariculture). I just wanted to know if he's basing it on common sense logic like you describe (which I agree with) or if he was referencing something specific (i.e. legislation) that I should be keeping tabs on.
That would obviously impact the prices we'd get. And not in a bad way.
Tom
Don't get me wrong. I agree with everything you said and am intimately familiar with the results of the ban on importation of birds (have bred african grays, lovebirds, etc in the past...started in '80). I'm sure it's just a matter of time.
Was just wondering about Ed's choice of words.....the written statement is frequently harder to understand than a verbal statement. When I read his line I inferred a tone of impending certainty as if Ed knows something I don't (well...that's a given when it comes to mariculture). I just wanted to know if he's basing it on common sense logic like you describe (which I agree with) or if he was referencing something specific (i.e. legislation) that I should be keeping tabs on.
That would obviously impact the prices we'd get. And not in a bad way.
Tom
David M
New member
RCS- that leg has appeared here before, consensus is that it is dying a slow death. Unless some industry is threatened ( like say there was was a viable aquaculture program in the US ) it won't pass. In the 80's it was Foster's Farms and their like that pushed the ban on imported birds, they just had too much to lose.
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