How much food and nutrients?

[cayars]

I'd like to get some suggestions and a checkup on my tank feedings. I really appreciate anyone who takes the time to read this and really has a good handle on feeding. We always hear not to feed to much but I'm worried I might not be feeding enough for the long term success of the tanks.

Brief Equipment Overview:
I'm presently running 2 foam fractioners (protein skimmers), UV and 200mg of near constant Ozone with an average ORP of 375. My PH runs in the range of 7.9 to 8.1. I of course (big surprise) have many different additives but those are easy to determine when to dose by testing the water. I fully test: Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates, Phosporus, Calcium, Magnesium, Iron, Strontium, Iodine, Silica & Boron as well as have test kits for residual ozone, oxygen and a couple of others. I have and use all the Pinpoint digital monitors. The only ongoing "battle" is NITRATES but I've gotten them down to a steady 25 (and dropping).

I have 6 reactors running plus use a fluval 405 with my own media in it. I've got everything from carbon to phosphate sponges to purigen to poly pads going. Much of this has been to battle Phosphates and Nitrates but I've got the phosphates at zero and staying there as well as have the Nitrates on the downswing thanks to 2 nitrate reactors (one suphur one not) another refugium and 10 more clams. Once the nitrates get close to zero I'll try and wean the tank off all the reactors and let it take a more "natural" approach. Most of the reactors are full of "sponge material" that frankly just doesn't work very well. (We live and learn)

Here is a brief list of live stock.
Fish:
Green Manderin
Spotted Manderin
Scooter Red Blenny
Purple Firefish
Foxface Lo (Foxface Rabbitfish)
Copperband Butterflyfish
2 Hawain Yellow Tangs
Purple Tang
Pacific Blue Tang (Hippo or Regal)
Kole Tang
Hawian Flame Angelfish
Coral Beauty Angelfish
2 Ocellaris Clownfish
2 Clarkii Clowns
Yellow Anthias
Orange Anthias
4 Blue/Green Reef Chromis
2 Kaudern's (Banggai) Cardinalfish
2 Spotted (Pajama) Cardinalfish
Diamond Watchman Goby
Cleaner Wrasse

Inverts:
Derasa Clam 5"
1 Super Colored Maxima Clam 4.5"
7 Super Colored Maxima Clams 1.5"-2"
2 Vietnam Gold Colored Maxima Clams 2"
2 Anemone
Debelius' Reef Lobster
2 Large Hermit Crabs (just moved them to the refugium as one was messing with my clams too much)
dozens of Dwarf Blue Leg Hermit Crabs
handfull of Scarlet Reef Hermit Crabs
dozen Dwarf Red Tip Hermit Crabs
2 Sand Sifting Sea Stars
Linckia Sea Star, Red
3 Scarlet Skunk Cleaner Shrimp
3 Blood Red Fire Shrimp
5 Peppermint Shrimp
Turbo Snails
Astraea Conehead Snails
Margarita Snails
Nassarius Snails
Banded Trochus Snails
(any more suggestions or look good?)

Corals (35+ mixed):
SPS Hard Corals
LPS Hard Corals
Mushroom Corals
Soft Corals
Polyps - Colonial Corals

First question concerns feeding. I presently feed a mixture of food. I use an automatic feeder for dry food. I have it set to feed a single portion at 12am and 6am and double portions at 12pm and 6pm. I mix different foods together and this mix entails about even parts of:
Omega One Marine Flakes
Ocean Nutrition Prime Reef Flakes
Ocean Nutrition Formula Two Marine Pellets
Red Sea MarineGro granules
Whole Freeze Dried Cyclop-eeze (powder like)
Julian Sprung's Purple Seaweed Sea Veggies (I break these up into flake size pieces)
Nori (I break these up into flake size pieces)
(I sometimes hang Nori but often times forget so that is why I mix it into the dry food)

Frozen Foods I manually add to tank:
Ocean Nutrition Invert Food (good for scallops, feather duster worms, corals, sponges, anemones and sea apples)
Krill Cubes
Spirulina Brine Shrimp
Brine Shrimp
Mysis Shrimp
Squid
Tubifex Worms

OK so first question would be concerning the dry foods. I'm feed 4 times a day with 2 of these "double portions". Pretty much all the flake food is eaten pretty quickly. Some of it sinks for the inverts to get at as designed. Would you leave this as is or change it? Is there any other dry food type you would mix in or leave out from the mix?

The really big question. How much and how often would you feed the frozen foods based on the stocking of the tank? Oh btw, I do put a couple of drops of concentrated garlic on the frozen cubes so it absorbs a little before I feed this to the fish.

I also have the following refrigerated foods:
Reef Nutrition Phyto Feast
Reef Nutition Arcti Pods
DT's Live Marine Phytoplankton
Eco-Systems Zooplankton

I think my general plan is to not purchase the Phyto Feast (or Kent Phyto & Zoo - below) anymore and just use DT's Phytoplankton from now on since it's live. Does anyone see any advantage to using both or keeping the Phyto Feast?

How much and how often would you feed the above to the tank? (Phytoplankton, Zooplankton, Arcti Pods)?

Now if that wasn't enough, I also have amoung other additives (All Kent Products - brief bottle directions included)
Coral Accel - 1 to 2 teaspoons per 50 gallons daily
Micro Vert - 0.5 to 1.5 teaspoons per 55 gallons up to 3 times a week
PhytoPlex - 1 to 2 teaspoons per 50 gallons up to 3 times a week.
ZooPlex - 1 to 2 teaspoons per 50 gallons. Feed several times weekly.
ChromaPlex - 1 to 2 teaspoons per 50 gallons. Feed several times weekly.
Reeding the back of the ZooPlex bottle it suggests to alternate use with PhtoPlex, ChromaPlex and Coral Accel. This would more or less be easy in that you could just use Coral Accel every other day with the alternate day using one of the other products. Hmm, how convenient for them.

Being that I'd think DT's will be used I shouldn't have a need for PhytoPlex anymore correct? Same with the ZooPlex since I have the alternate food source for this. So what do you guys think of Coral Accell, Micro Vert and ChromaPlex?

My goal is to use a dose pump to feed any liquids to the tank from a small refrig but that's behond the questions here. I'm just trying to automate as much of the setup as possible.

I really appreciate anyone who takes the time to read this detailed set of questions. We always hear not to feed to much but I'm worried I might not be feeding enough longterm or maybe not the right types of foods.

Thanks,
Carlo

 

[boxfishpooalot]

That is a huge bioload and huge amount of food to add to a 170gallon tank. I think the ocean has 1fish per 1million gallons of water :lol: . Yours is 29 fish total. Thats 5.8 gallons per fish. Not to mention you have a ton of tangs. They in themselves are pigs and crap a lot.

I would continue with the sulfur reactors, as they work well. Chances are, you have much too much poop running in the system for natural filtration to keep up with the degradation of organic materials. The ones in the rocks, sand bed ect.

Hows the algae in this tank? O yea and if you go by the 1 inch per 5 gallons.... I think you hit the jackpot

 

[cayars]

Yep it's a big bio load no doubt! Actually the display tank is a 110 (48x18x30) but when you add the sump and 2 refugiums as well as the reactors I've got 160+ gallons of water in the system.

No algea problems what so ever. I've never really had any algea problems besides a short lived red slime outbreak about 2 or 3 months into the tank which is normal. I made the mistake of using crushed coral as a subtrate and that surely doesn't help the nitrates or phosphates. I've been syphoning a little out with each water change. The combination of fish and inverts take care of any algea before I really see it.

I'm presently looking for a house that will accomodate 500+ gallon display tank(s) with plumbing into basement (want to do it right). I'm presently on the 3rd floor of an apartment (after divorce) and the 110 was tough enough to get up here. I'd really like to bring in a Perfecto 265 for the short term but I don't think I could get it in here. I'm going to use a thin sand bed in the displays with a large rdsb/refugiums. I should have about 2.5 lbs per gallon of real high quality live rock (tampabaysaltwater.com) in the new systems. One could say I'm "stocking up" at the moment although I've always ran a high bio load.

Personally, I don't think there is such a thing as too much bio load as long as you can throw the proper equipment at it to help nature a little. Now if your fish are stressing out it's a different matter but not really a bio load issue! There is no question in my mind that everything will be in a much larger tank in 2 or 3 months at most so I'm just getting by as it is for now.

I really like the look of all the fish on the "reef" and plan on having 100+ fish in the new system(s). It's going to be a system you won't forget once you see it. I pretty much have the equipment (or money set a side) to hand it now short of the new tanks.

But with that said you didn't answer my question about how much and how often to feed.

Carlo

 

[boxfishpooalot]

Personally, I don't think there is such a thing as too much bio load as long as you can throw the proper equipment at it to help nature a little

I used to think this too. Untill I had a discussion with RHF and Boomer in the reef chemistry forum about ammonia secretion of the average yellow tang. I think on average the ammonia produced was somthing like 1ppm nitrate per day per yellow tang after bacteria get ahold of it and convert it. So you have to watch how many fish go in the tank. Feeding just makes it worse.

But with that said you didn't answer my question about how much and how often to feed.

This is a very complicated subject imo. I mean think about the question you need to know. How much ammonia is being produced? How much nitrate is converted? Where are most organics ending up? What is eating them, and what is there waste product? The list is huge.

All I can say is 5 grams of flake food is enough to completely destroy a 125gallon tank if left to rot. And its water chemistry.

And food being added is subject to a definition. Is it living? Phytoplankton is not really what most call food, because they themselves will remove nitrates, ammonia, nitrite, phosphate, iron,silica ect. Then we gotta ask, are they getting skimmed out or eaten by another animal that poops ,lands on the sandbed to produce ammonia again?

 

[cayars]

I just looked at the size of the "cans" of food I have on hand and the flake food ranges in size from 15 grams to 34 grams per can. With that in mind 5 grams of food is a super huge amount and I wouldn't be the least surprised if the chemisty of the tank went crazy if you added that much at once.

My nitrates are dropping pretty well and this has been the only "problem" for me that I can tell from a water quality standpoind. I've went from 25-30 Nitrates with 30 gallon daily changes to 10 Nitrates with NO daily water changes. I just tested with 3 different test kits and get anywhere from 5 to 10 nitrates which is just fine for most tanks and it's still dropping.

Let's look at this from a different point of view. I'm not concerned with water quality but ONLY in the nutrition the fish/corals/inverts are getting.

So what I'm asking is how much food is PROPER for the list I gave and how often should they be fed each type of food.

I've never really seen a "rule of thumb" given for frozen food. I.E. one frozen cube is good for 4 fish per day type thing. I've just sort of went with giving them what I think they need and make sure it's eaten in a timely manner.

I've been running this tank for 6 months this way and making little improvements along the way. I'm ONLY concerned with the NUTRITION they are getting and NOT concernced with decay or byproducts. I'm really just looking for other oppinions as a double check to see if I'm in the right ballpark on the amount of food the tank gets.

If it helps to get off the water quality just assume the tank is 1000 gallons with a ton of live rock.

Carlo

 

[GreshamH]

Cayars, Phyto-Feast is live.

There are two Phyto-Feasts, one is LIVE and the other is more concentrated. Both are live.

 

[GreyDC]

I am not by any means an expert but I think you may be looking too much into it........

If you're livestock and corals look healthy, the feeding you described is plenty and proper. Just watch your tank, it will tell you if you are feeding too much or too little.

Much of your battles with high PO4 could lead you to believe you may be feeding too much do to the high concentrations of PO4 in flake foods. Play around with the feedings and see what happens.....

Thats just my 2 cents...hope its helpful.....

PS....Just something I noticed in your message regarding the chemical balance of your tank.....I would watch your ph. I would raise it around 8.1 to 8.3. A ph around 7.9 means your ALK is probably pretty low too which your SPS are not going to like......I have some fun battles with this.......

 

[davy182]

With that many fish you would be better off making your own food. And as far as the other stuff to feed your corals and clams I would feed them live rotifers that are gut loaded with algae at least that way they stay in the water column longer and your fish will also eat them.

 

[ihopss]

You better have a generator.

 

[davy182]

currently i have two and am looking at a whole house propane one that kicks in at 10 seconds of no electricity.

 

[Tool369]

When i feed my fish i time to see how long it takes them to finish the food. When i add a new fish i feed the same amount and then add a little more food to get back to a consistant time. I do this because i check my water quality often and if it changes then i change from there. A good thing to do is measure the amount of food you are feeding. With your tangs keep a good variety of food and that will help there colors stay nice and bright. sorry i might have missed but what skimmers are you using?
Hope this helps
Tyrel