Howdy Folks

[prickles]

That thread is a bit depressing..... But in all seriousness good stuff and pretty much echoing what I have heard to this point. As far as the local reef club, do we have one and how does one join the secret society?

As far as goals, the following are the fish that I am looking to anchor the tank with, let me know if there is a recommended stocking order:

1. Tangs:
- Been told I only get to keep one in a tank my size, the three I am looking at are Powder Blue, Hippo, or Purple

2. Clown
- I have a black and a perc, they are both small and the LFS tells me they will become a mated pair over time. Would love to get an anenome for them and would appreciate advice when that is realistic

3. Goby's
- Not sure if there is a limit on these guys, but the following are the ones I like: Catalina, Manadarin (heard horror stories), Warpaint

4. Angel's
- Have been told they may not work in a reef, but would like one of the following: Flame, Imperator, Majestic

If anyone has advice on stocking order or alternatives let me know.

As far as Corals / Shrooms, I really have no idea. I think the different carpets look cool and some of the blue mushrooms. I think I am about hardy here, rather than exotic. I just think they are cool in general

For inverts:

- Sounds like I need a CuC, but not sure when to start. Don't want to starve it and not sure what to put in, other than to avoid hermits if possibile

- Daughter would think a long funky star would be cool

- At least one urchin

- Anenome

Again, for all of this I do not know stocking order or pace and would love opinions. I get different suggestions from the LFS, so figured this would be one more place and I could go with consensus.

Thanks for the welcome, hope I don't end up broke.....

Step one. Catch your fish and quarantine them in a different tank in either copper or hypo for 4 weeks. Do that with every fish you add. Look back on this forum or any other forum and you will see that ich (cryptocaryon irritans) kills more captive fish than anything else. That alone will make your tank better than anything else you can do.

wait 6 months to add an anemone (rbta) and a mandarin. You need stability for the first, and pods to grow for the 2nd.

Carpets are anemones and hard to keep. Mushrooms....be careful!!! I dumped a whole tank because it was overgrown with mushrooms and zoos. You want diversity?

No angel.

I would not do a Powder blue in that size. If you are going to upgrade...perhaps. If you are not 100% ich free because of QTing in Copper or hypo, don't even try it. Add last.

Urchins are cool, but are bulldozers. I love tuxedos and keep meaning to get one.

Stars have issues....depending. Stay away from sandsifters...and some people say brittles eat fish....I have none and I'm happy with that.

Quarantine

Quarantine

Quarantine


Did I say quarantine?

 

[killafornia]

Taking off work to receive a light be careful this hobby is worse than a crack addiction !!!

+100 on the addition but worse then crack!! If I smoked, free based, and or put into my arm as much moneys worth as I have spent on my tank I would of died off long ago. I have a long spine sea urchin if your looking 4 1

 

[xpertrifle]

Welcome to our expensive hobby! I live on the NW side as well, Cortaro/I-10. You can come by and see my tank and ask questions if you like.
When you add fish do so slowly.

I have 3 dwarf angels (Flame, Bi-color, Coral Beauty) in my reef tank with lots of corals and anem. The only one that has ever picked a little is the Bi-Color. But if you feed them they tend to stay happy!

I agree that a yellow tang is a great hardy choice. If you want to keep tangs which are very susceptble to ich. They will get ich when stressed out guaranteed. The best way to combat this is to help the fish help it's self. Get a couple cleaner shrimp, they will pick parasites (ich) off your fish. Also when you first get a fish and from time to time soak their food in garlic and vitamens, this will boost their amune system. Both are available online or at your fav LFS.

Stay away from hermit crabs (trouble). Use snails and shrimp/larger crabs for clean-up.

Only get small urchins, they are not as much trouble. Longspines are very large and will bulldoze your tank and need to be fed to keep them from eating your corals when it is done with the algae in your tank (in a couple of weeks).

The comon idea is that cucumbers and sea apples will wipe out your tank when dead. In a small tank this is true. If you have a skimmer and charcoal you will only lose livestock if you leave a dead animal in the tank for a long time. I have killed many things (that sat in the tank overnight) starting out and never lost any other livestock. I have a sea apple and several cuc's, they are some of my fav critters.

I sugest you get several opions about everything (every one has a diff experiance/opion) and take the best of all.
Many members of this forum are also on ACRO. http://azacro.freeforums.org/index.php
They meet the first sunday of every month for a get together/coral auction.

 

[jjk_reef00]

I disagree with xpertrifle. You need to quarantine your fish to prevent ich, just read prickles post above.

 

[fresnohall]

Thanks again to everyone for the input. Picked up my CuC today and letting them go to work. backwards johnny helped me pick them out, much appreciated. The monster emerald crab is awesome, he is going to work on the live rock.... Still going through a diatom bloom, decided to hold off doing much more until that cleans up, these inverts will keep me happy for a bit (who knew snails moved so slow).

Excited to put in the first piece of coral, but being patient. The royal blue shroom looks sweet and saw something they called a hammerhead that looked like an anenome that the LFS said I could give a shot in short order.

Thanks for the heads up on the local group as well, if I can hold out I will take a look at the coral auction to get something cheap and easy to start with.

On the fence with the QT thing, just because of the investment in another set up. There should be a QT co-op where someone can fish sit for everyone, though it would probably be impossible to keep that up as well. Why don't the LFS do it for each batch that comes through? Not enough instant gratification?

Anyways, taking everyones opinions into account and feeling my way through. Thanks again.

 

[xpertrifle]

Just to clarify you should still QT your critters because the LFS's have a huge turnover rate and some times things like a parasite can take time to manifest. But if you want more sensitive fish, like tangs. The garlic and vitamins will increase your survival rate, esp with a young tank that will fluctuate parameters.

 

[Big Jay D]

Thanks again to everyone for the input. Picked up my CuC today and letting them go to work. backwards johnny helped me pick them out, much appreciated. The monster emerald crab is awesome, he is going to work on the live rock.... Still going through a diatom bloom, decided to hold off doing much more until that cleans up, these inverts will keep me happy for a bit (who knew snails moved so slow).

Excited to put in the first piece of coral, but being patient. The royal blue shroom looks sweet and saw something they called a hammerhead that looked like an anenome that the LFS said I could give a shot in short order.

Thanks for the heads up on the local group as well, if I can hold out I will take a look at the coral auction to get something cheap and easy to start with.

On the fence with the QT thing, just because of the investment in another set up. There should be a QT co-op where someone can fish sit for everyone, though it would probably be impossible to keep that up as well. Why don't the LFS do it for each batch that comes through? Not enough instant gratification?

Anyways, taking everyones opinions into account and feeling my way through. Thanks again.

QT tanks a cheap and easy. They do require water changes though. I don't have any large fish but I have a 10 gallon tank I use. A couple pieces of PVC, air stone, and a HOB filter with charcoal in it. That's it. I do water changes as needed and it's usually everyday. Not 100% but around 20-50%. I do use my QT tanks as a hospital tank too. If you decide to treat your fish with copper then be sure you never but invertebrates in that tank. EVER.

Some LFSs use copper to treat fish. Some don't. It's best to keep a close eye on the livestock in a LFS. I personally am a little wary of buying fish that have just arrived unless the store has a guarantee.

I would wait on the hammer. Be very patient. Take this time and read, research and learn. Keep your hands dry for a bit. It will make life easier.

 

[RoganTerrance]

welcome

 

[prickles]

I have a 10 gallon tank I use. A couple pieces of PVC, air stone, and a HOB filter with charcoal in it. That's it. I do water changes as needed and it's usually everyday. Not 100% but around 20-50%. I do use my QT tanks as a hospital tank too.

Ditto (although I have a couple pieces of porous rock in mine). It's less than the cost of most fish to set up. Not an excuse. If you get an outbreak of ich or some other disease, it can kill all your fish. All your fish dying can kill all your corals. I have personally had a disease kill ~$2,000 of fish/corals in a week from being lazy and not Qting a fish.

Also do EVERY fish. I have Qt'ed every type of fish from a clown to a pipefish to a mandarin to a pbt and an achilles in there. Losses are practically 0 if you stay on top of your cycle.

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but if you are serious about keeping your tank for years, this is something you won't regret. Think about it like electricity, a necessary expense. Right now you have the opportunity to pull out those fish because there is very little in your tank to disturb. Once it gets full and grows out, removing fish to treat them is a much bigger deal. Ich etc can cause a tank crash. Do a search for tank crash, and see how many people think about giving up after one. You don't want to go through that.

 

[fresnohall]

How do you keep water stable in that small of an environment?

 

[savageAJC]

waterchanges ( i use a 10gal) i learned my lesson when i bought a clown, didnt qt, few days later my fish started scratching like crazy on rocks... i saved all except my royal gramma. total cost for my qt setup: about $30..$10 for 10 gal tank, $10 for small heater, and about $13 for a small filter (ok so more like $33 lol) Most people keep a sponge somewhere in their sump or overflow so when you need to QT you can pull that from your tank to use in qt ( has all that good bacteria etc on it)

 

[fresnohall]

just to make sure I am getting it, buy the set up you listed. Pull 10 Gallon from my main tank, let it run and treat. How often water changes on the QT, and how much? Is the consensus 4 weeks in QT? New water or water from the main tank?

Is 10 gallon really enough, I would think it might stress

Thanks again, would like to do it the right way for the animals, but need to take into account my own constraints as well.

 

[jjk_reef00]

Size of qt really depends on what fish you plan to keep. Clown fish should be fine in a 10 gallon. A 4" tang will not. You can pick up a cheap on off craigslist with everything you need for less than the cost of a single fish.

I like to do 50% water changes on my qt two times a week. Really you just need to keep the water quality high. I use my tank water to replace the water in the qt for water changes.

I recommend using a turkey baster, siphon or something else to vacuum the bottom of the qt so there isn't rotting food in the tank.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1846124

 

[prickles]

I like to do 50% water changes on my qt two times a week. Really you just need to keep the water quality high. I use my tank water to replace the water in the qt for water changes.

I recommend using a turkey baster, siphon or something else to vacuum the bottom of the qt so there isn't rotting food in the tank.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1846124

I do everything pretty much as he listed. I do always medicate though.
Here is my current routine:
Week 1 -->metronidazole
Week 2 -->coppersafe (I put the recommended dosage in over 2 days)
week 3 -->coppersafe
week 4 -->coppersafe
week 5 -->coppersafe
week 6 -->prazipro
After Acclimation to display tank --> formalin bath 30-45 min

The metro seems to stimulate appetite and get rid of internall parasites. That's why it's week 1.
The coppersafe is for ich/velvet etc
Prazipro is for other parasites
Formalin is for brooklynella

Every time I do a 50% water change, I add 50% of the dosage of whatever medication is supposed to be in the tank. Also make sure you top off the water before you do the water change so you aren't messing up the salinity. If you don't have one, a refractometer is very helpful and probably the tool I use the most after my magnet cleaner.

In your case, because your display tank isn't neccesarily pest free, I would only do the first fill from your DT. I would not add any water from the DT to the QT after that, as you could be reintroducing parasites to your QT from the DT.

Remember it's useless unless you do the fallow thing. You can add pest free fish to your display tank, but if there are pests in there, the fish will just contract them once they get there.

As for tangs, I have a 100% survival/transfer rate in my 10g QT and have done about 1/2 dozen of them. I could just be lucky though.

You will notice you have received a 100% "yes" vote on should you QT.

 

[fresnohall]

thanks for the link. My searches on this site bring all kinds of random topics back.

 

[xpertrifle]

To keep things stable you need Macro algae I have several types plus mangroves.

I do not use any chem such as copper when I QT. I believe in a natural approach. The copper works by irritating (burning) the skin of the fish so much they produce copious amounts of slime and thus shed any parasites. Fish have an immune sys too....

I once bought a powder blue tang and tossed it in without QT'ing at all. Every fish in my tank had tons of ich. (a couple tangs, angles, wrasses, even 2 clowns and a lion) I fed veggies several times a day soaked in garlic and vitamins. I also added 6 cleaner. I did not lose any fish! The lion even let himself be cleaned!
(He ate the shrimp after the ich was gone.....)

If you need any macro algae I have some go get you started.

 

[xpertrifle]

Also a nice tang like a powder blue can often get ich when added, even after being QT'd! They can also get it some times when stressed. The bugs will be there in your rock/sand. Ich is not fatal and wont even be visible if your fish are healthy.
www.wetwebmedia.com is also very good source for info. It is a pain to navigate but will often give another opinion. (a more knowledgeable opinion than most of us.)

 

[jjk_reef00]

The copper works by irritating (burning) the skin of the fish so much they produce copious amounts of slime and thus shed any parasites. Fish have an immune sys too....

Completely false, otherwise we could use 1 medication and that would treat for everything. Fish have immune systems also but the glass box we place them makes concentration levels of disease much higher when compared to natural sea water.

Also a nice tang like a powder blue can often get ich when added, even after being QT'd! They can also get it some times when stressed.

If you qt properly there will not be ich present in your display tank, hence there is no chance the powder blue would get ich even if it was under extreme stress.

You may be lucky and have living fish infected with ich, but not velvet. Velvet can easily wipe out your whole tank in 1 week. I recommend cupramine over other copper products.

FYI if you take macro from xpertrifle (or anyone else with ich in their tank) I would let it sit fallow in a bucket for 11 weeks just to make sure you don't bring his ich into your tank.

 

[jjk_reef00]

thanks for the link. My searches on this site bring all kinds of random topics back.

Go to the Fish Disease Treatment forum and search there. For those who believe in the natural approach, go to that forum and see what can happen if you are not careful. You can go years without qt but if you are in the hobby long enough sooner or later disease will get you. And believe me it is no fun...

 

[prickles]

The copper works by irritating (burning) the skin of the fish so much they produce copious amounts of slime and thus shed any parasites.

I am no marine biologist. However I have read many many posts on here by people who sure sound like they know what they're doing. I have never heard of the slime/shedding parasites concept. What is your source?

Here is another opinion from reefkeeping magazine.

"Copper specifically targets the infectious, free-swimming theront stage of this disease, as being buried deep in the skin of the host protects the trophonts; the cyst walls of the tomonts are similarly impervious (Colorni & Burgess, 1997)."

Here is a sticky post that details all the "proven" methods and how to do them. At the bottom is another post on keeping ich out of your system entirely.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1500214