Hurt my brain with sump troubles...

[MurphyLong]

First off, it's my own fault on failure to plan. I admit that. I now need ideas that don't involve draining my tank.

I have a 125RR with a 20g breeder sump. (Yeah, I know, it's small.)

I had to put the sump in the stand through the top before the DT was put on it, that is the only way anything with any kind of length will get in there. In retrospect, I should have gotten a 40G long/breeder and made a new sump before I set everything up, but I wanted to go with what I had.

Well, all 4 holes are 1" pipe (drains and returns) and for now (while I wait on my Amazon order of LocLine return nozzles) the returns are just open pipe pouring into the tank. I have a single return pump with a T junction to both returns, with ball valves in-line on both sides, so I can divert flow, as well as reduce it overall. The sump is a 3 chamber, skimmer and drain pips on left, return in the middle, and fuge on right. With the return pump cut back to 50% flow (using valves) it still sucks the section dry, unless I go with full siphon (which I'm not doing, I'm content with dual durso pipes, noise doesn't bother me.) I filled the DT up, then the sump to a height about 2" below the rim of the sump (any higher and the skimmer would overflow from baffle height) and started the pump. "SLUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURP." If I add water until it stops slurping, it overflows when I cut power. I have siphon breaks (my returns aren't even submerged currently) so I'm not sure what I'm missing. I don't know what kind of pump it is, other than it's heavy, metal, and moves water like crazy. Could this be just a simple case of an overpowered pump?

I have another return pump (DC Controllable of some sort) and that was going to be my next test, but I have to cut flow on the current pump to barely a trickle to keep water in the sump. Water isn't disappearing, so it's not spraying it somewhere I can't see.

Now, my thought was drilling the side of the 20G and connecting it to a 20G wet/dry I have laying around to hold more water when the power is off, and it will also give me another section to T-the return pump into an algae scrubber... I can't just pickup a 40L now and put it under there, because even the 20 is too long to come out through the front or back. What do you guys think?

 

[mcgyvr]

So if you let it "sluuurrrrpp" (suck air) for a bit will the water level eventually sort itself out and rise back up and the sluurp stops..?
Did you try that yet? You should..

The water level on startup will drop below the normal running level in the sumps return section but as the overflow/drain starts/fills up again it will correct itself and the water level in the return section will rise again and normalize..

 

[MurphyLong]

So if you let it "sluuurrrrpp" (suck air) for a bit will the water level eventually sort itself out and rise back up and the sluurp stops..?
Did you try that yet? You should..

The water level on startup will drop below the normal running level in the sumps return section but as the overflow/drain starts/fills up again it will correct itself and the water level in the return section will rise again and normalize..

That's not what's happening. It continues to slurp until more water than the sump can handle is added, unless I restrict flow to a near trickle. I'm hoping it's related to the fact that my returns are just 1" PVC pouring into the tank, and once I have the 3/4" LocLine nozzles in place, it will create a little pressure perhaps...

 

[thegrun]

Your return section is too small and as you have learned reducing the flow to nearly zero is the only safe way to make it work (which would make having a sump worthless) without increasing the size of the return section by eliminating the refugium or adding a second tank to increase the return pump section size. A check valve on the return line would also work, but that methodology is a flood waiting to happen.

 

[Potatohead]

How much flow are we talking here? A 125 only needs about 300- 500 or so, so if you're pushing 1000 through it you can certainly turn it down

 

[mcgyvr]

So we will need information from you..

Lets start here..
A)How much extra water can your sump tank in a power loss situation?
B)How much water by volume is in the return pipes themselves?

If B>A = SOL

 

[2_zoa]

While the size of the pump or the flow rate will dictate how high the water level in the display tank goes before equilibrium is reached. I think you whole problem is coming from a lack of water holding ability in the sump. (Too small)

You listed that the sump has 3 chambers with drains going to either side with a center return, however. You didn't mention the size of these chambers or the height that which the baffles are. The skimmer and refugium chambers are effectively reducing your small sump into an even smaller sump. Example. If those areas take up 7 gallons worth of water.......you now only have 13 gallons of capacity in the sump. You gotta do the math and see what your really dealing with for extra water space. Follow?

Also the height at which your durso pipes are at in the overflow will put a little extra water in the sump during a pump off situation. Higher the better within reason to the overflow height.

If the overflow has teeth, it will cause a higher water level during running in the display causing you to need more water in play during running. Which means you need more holding capacity in the sump. If you pump a lot through the sump, the water height/wall of water going through the overflow will be higher. Teeth give about half as much real estate for water to flow over.

Then there is the amount that the pipes will hold as Mcgyver mentioned.

 

[MurphyLong]

My standpipes are as high as possible, with the top of them being even with the top of the teeth on the overflows. I have a house full of cheerleaders at the moment, but I'll skip measuring the sump, since I have accepted I'll have to find a way to attach another tank to it with bulkheads. The sump is almost in thirds, with the skimmer section being only slightly smaller from the bubble trap, so roughly 5 gallons per section. I'm pretty sure due to my dinky sump, B>A . I don't trust check valves, my goal is for "least likely to flood."

Rather than drill two tanks together, I may suck it up and try to see what my options are for cutting the stand and swapping sumps are...

 

[MurphyLong]

How much flow are we talking here? A 125 only needs about 300- 500 or so, so if you're pushing 1000 through it you can certainly turn it down

I have to turn it down to like 20gph to prevent slurping.

 

[2_zoa]

I'm a little board so, this is rough math to show what I mean with the water height in the display vs flow rate and an overflow with teeth.


An overflow with teeth having 1/4" gaps and 1/4" solids in between that's 30" long. Will have an approximate water height going over it of a 1/2" with about 400 GPH flow. That's about 3 gallons of water in the case of a 125 gallon tank.

Now, if that same 30" long overflow didn't have any teeth on it. It was just a flat piece. There would be about 1/8" of water height. Which is only about 3/4 of a gallon.

Huge difference in the amount of water that will back flow into the sump from just the display tank water alone. Now you look at the amount of water that will still drain into the sump from inside the overflow box based on the height of your durso pipes. Then plumbing......

 

[2_zoa]

My standpipes are as high as possible, with the top of them being even with the top of the teeth on the overflows. I have a house full of cheerleaders at the moment, but I'll skip measuring the sump, since I have accepted I'll have to find a way to attach another tank to it with bulkheads. The sump is almost in thirds, with the skimmer section being only slightly smaller from the bubble trap, so roughly 5 gallons per section. I'm pretty sure due to my dinky sump, B>A . I don't trust check valves, my goal is for "least likely to flood."

Rather than drill two tanks together, I may suck it up and try to see what my options are for cutting the stand and swapping sumps are...

There have been people that have placed a temporary brace so they could remove a section of their stands to remove or replace the sump without draining the display. I'm sure if you search a couple threads might pop up.

 

[MurphyLong]

I found a solution. Going to remove baffle for fuge, and since my wet/dry is MUCH taller, I'm going to plumb it up and over into the sump, and T the return to spray some water in the wet/dry Which should give me the room I need.

 

[MurphyLong]

Okay, in the attached picture (my paint skills suck, and it's not to scale of course) green lines are drains, red lines are pumped return. My plan is to remove the baffle marked with the purple arrow and add the fuge shown. My theory is that I should have at least a couple more gallons of "backflow" room in a power outage, as well as adding to total water volume, and should allow me to stop restricting the return pump so much because it will be diverting a small amount to fuge, and won't have such a small return section to suck dry.. Am I missing anything? (Fuge to sump will actually have dual pipes to prevent clogs.)

 

[NYCSTORMTROOPER]

I had a similar problem like yours but in a 20L ...I'm not an expert on plumbing in terms of head loss and overturn knowledge but just want to point out the ball valves you mention...I had my plumbing setup just with ball valves and had slurping issues... A fellow reefer recommended me the following to use the ball valves for future cleaning of pipes or troubleshooting and add a gate valve to the existing pipe for adjusting water from DT to sump...Maybe is not much help cause of your volume of water but it help me tremendously in adjusting the slurping ...Is more of a precise tuning with the gate valve then trying to adjust it with a ball valve , it was either too much or to less..And the return loc line located it in the highest point of you water line for less water into sump if power outage.....Hope this help

 

[MurphyLong]

I had a similar problem like yours but in a 20L ...I'm not an expert on plumbing in terms of head loss and overturn knowledge but just want to point out the ball valves you mention...I had my plumbing setup just with ball valves and had slurping issues... A fellow reefer recommended me the following to use the ball valves for future cleaning of pipes or troubleshooting and add a gate valve to the existing pipe for adjusting water from DT to sump...Maybe is not much help cause of your volume of water but it help me tremendously in adjusting the slurping ...Is more of a precise tuning with the gate valve then trying to adjust it with a ball valve , it was either too much or to less..And the return loc line located it in the highest point of you water line for less water into sump if power outage.....Hope this help

I STILL haven't gotten my Locline returns from Amazon, they haven't even shipped, so I still just have 1" PVC returns level with the surface, so there's an immediate siphon break. I plan to add a gate valve, but have to order them, since Lowe's and HoDe only had ball valves. I'm hoping my added fuge/baffle removal will at least work like I'm thinking in terms of creating more of a backflow "cushion" and adding to the total volume, without some silly failure hazard I'm missing.

 

[Lsufan]

Loc line isn't going to help. The only thing locline will help is if u can place them higher then where the water enters the tank, u will get less drain back to the sump when u turn your return off. If u already have your returns at the surface then locline isn't going to help anything.

I think it goes back to what mcgyver & thegrun said about the return section being to small. Removing the baffle & eliminating the fuge should help that & may take care off your issue. U will essentially be making your return section twice as big.

I dont think gate valves will really help u much eighther on the returns if u are using a syphon drain. I find ball valves work well for what they are getting used for. I do recommend a gate valve on the syphon drain though. U really adjust your drain to match the return pump, not the return to match the drain. That's why ball valves work ok on the returns, they don't have to be precise

I'm sure by now u know about how much water u can run in the sump without it overflowing. Now that u took the fuge out I would start off with a little less water then u think it can handle & let I run for a few minutes. Then turn it off & see how much water drains to the sump. Once it has drained all it is going to drain u can fill the sump up the rest of the way & u know it won't flood when u turn it off again.

Btw if u decide to change sumps & have to reconfigure the stand, I would cut a access on one of the ends of the stand & make a door for it. That way u can just slide the sump in & out. I make all my stands like that with a door on one of the ends for sump access

 

[MurphyLong]

Loc line isn't going to help. The only thing locline will help is if u can place them higher then where the water enters the tank, u will get less drain back to the sump when u turn your return off. If u already have your returns at the surface then locline isn't going to help anything.

I think it goes back to what mcgyver & thegrun said about the return section being to small. Removing the baffle & eliminating the fuge should help that & may take care off your issue. U will essentially be making your return section twice as big.

I dont think gate valves will really help u much eighther on the returns if u are using a syphon drain. I find ball valves work well for what they are getting used for. I do recommend a gate valve on the syphon drain though. U really adjust your drain to match the return pump, not the return to match the drain. That's why ball valves work ok on the returns, they don't have to be precise

I'm sure by now u know about how much water u can run in the sump without it overflowing. Now that u took the fuge out I would start off with a little less water then u think it can handle & let I run for a few minutes. Then turn it off & see how much water drains to the sump. Once it has drained all it is going to drain u can fill the sump up the rest of the way & u know it won't flood when u turn it off again.

Btw if u decide to change sumps & have to reconfigure the stand, I would cut a access on one of the ends of the stand & make a door for it. That way u can just slide the sump in & out. I make all my stands like that with a door on one of the ends for sump access

The side door thing is a good idea, I'll look into that. I have durso pipes which aren't siphon drains, and I will never EVER valve a drain again. Several bad experiences doing that.