Hypo quarantine tank?

[davidwillis]

Hi, I have ich on my flame angel, and decided to do a hypo quarantine tank to get rid of it.

I have a 29 gal with 4 damsels, 2 clownfish, and a flame angel. I am using a 10 gal quarantine tank. I started it yesterday by putting a hob power filter on the tank, putting a heater in, adding some pvc pipe for hiding places, and pumping about 5 gal of tank water into it. After I moved the fish over I have been adding fresh water to the tank slowly. The salinity is now at 1.018.

My question its that I am using a hydrometer to measure the salinity. I know I am supposed to get to 1.08-1.09. But how critical is that range, and is it possible for me to just aim of 1.08 with my hydrometer? Or do I have to buy a refractometer?

And also do I need to keep the salinity that low for 8 weeks?

Thanks
David

 

[RBU1]

Buy a refractometer. Keep the salinity at 1.008 with 0 fluctuation. Keep an eye on PH in low salinity that can be a challenge. Have plenty of water made up at the proper 1.008 salinity and plenty of PH buffer. Good Luck hypo is a PITA.....

 

[svejil]

David,

I would purchase a refractometer, and be sure to calibrate frequently with distilled water. You want to shoot for a salinity of 10ppt. You are mentioning specific gravity 1.080 (which is not salinity which is measured in parts per thousand - PPT). A refractometer that is calibrated will have both salinity, and specific gravity. Use salinity and get to 10ppt.

A hydrometer could be very accurate, but since 1ppt can make the difference in success / failure, I would opt for purcahsing a refractometer, which you can find for around $50 - $60.

As for pH fluctuations in dilluted hyposaline conditions, you will have a hard time (especially early on) maintaining stable pH. Marine buffers do NOT work well in hyposaline conditions, therefore you need to use sodium bicarbonate. You can take clean baking soda, and bake at 350 degrees for 20 minutes, spread out on a cookie sheet. This dry mixture can now be used with RO top off water, and saltwater in your QT to bring up pH. Be careful and experiment (test) how much you need to mix in with a cup of water to get the pH you want. Since you are working with a very small QT of 10 gallons, you have the ability to make some large changes to your parameters.

In addition, you will need to have aged salterwater mixed to the 10ppt, and pH ready for frequent water changes. You will likely see ammonia spikes in your QT, especially early on. Limit these with water changes daily.

The recommended protocal regarding how long depends. Depends meaning how sure you want to be that ich is no longer present in your main display tank. The protocal in QT would be that once ALL spots are gone on ALL fishes, then you wait four more weeks at 10ppt. Then you raise (slowly) salinity back up over the course of at least 7 days, longer is OK then observe another 4 weeks, if no spots then fish are cured. As for in your display tank, here are some facts:

"I found that 6 weeks would give you the odds of about 99% success. That is, 1 in a 100 would still have a living Marine Ich parasite in the fishless tank.

At about 8 weeks, the odds are above 99.9% or less than 1 in a 1000 that there would be any living parasite in the fishless tank.

As far as research has found, the odds are about 100% or very close to that number, that there would be no living parasite in the fishless tank, when the tank is fishless for no less than 12 weeks.

I have heard of tanks still having parasites at or below 6 weeks, but so far have not heard of anyone having identified and confirmed living parasites in fishless tanks at 8 weeks, though there is a very small chance.

The assumptions with all this 'data' is that the tank remains active -- normal tropical temperatures, being fed, biological filter running, lighting as usual, etc." -- (Lee Birch)

Be very careful regarding cross contamination from your DT to your QT, as siphons, test tubes, etc. all can contaminate. If you see a spot occur during the hypo treatment, your clock starts over again.

From all that I have read, experienced myself, etc., hyposalinity is as effective if not more effective than copper based treatments. It is also more gentle on the fish. Fish osmoregulate more efficiently in hyposaline conditions. Hyposaline conditions also stress / shock ich since it can NOT osmoregulate in hyposaline conditions, therefore they perish. The ich are vulerable to hyposalinity during their free swimming stage, although there is debate whether they are also stressed and affected in other stage.

Sorry for the long post, and I likely left out some info., so my recommendation is to research on the internet "Hyposalinity" or OST (Osmotic Shock Therapy).

Let me know if you have anymore questions.

Good luck!

Steven

 

[RBU1]

I would purchase a refractometer, and be sure to calibrate frequently with distilled water.

I was always instructed to not use distilled water. Don't recall the science behind it. I always use a calibrating solution with a known value.

 

[RBU1]

CHeck out this article by Randy Holmes

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-12/rhf/index.php

If I understand it correctly you should be using a calibration solution as close to what you are trying to test. Using distilled water causes a larger range for error.

 

[svejil]

I read the article, and could not see the potential variance if only using distilled water, maybe I read it too quickly. I have tested mine with a test solution at 35ppt, and it matched dead on. It would not be a bad idea to at least test the calibration with distilled water with a known test solution to see if it matches.

Good point. I would say at 10ppt if you were off by 1ppt likely no big deal, however if you were off by more than 1ppt then you could have gone too low (bad for fish), or not low enough (won't kill MI).

Thanks for your input.

 

[davidwillis]

Thanks... that is great information.

Just so you know where I am getting most of my information, it is here:
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums...nts/23131-hyposalinity-treatment-process.html

So lower than 9 ppt will hurt the fish? And if it is up to 11 ppt it will not kill the ich?

Right now I am down to 1.008 or about 11ppt (using my hydrometer). I guess I will have to fork out the $50 for the refractometer, but even then I think it will be hard to keep it to within 1 ppt.

Right now I am struggling with ammonia, doing 50% water changes twice/day. My RO unit is getting a workout...LOL

I got some bacteria today to add into the tank to try and help the cycle start faster.


Thanks again
David

 

[RBU1]

If your using Hypo and don't intend to use copper get Prime by Seachem. It will detoxify the ammonia. Make things a little easier.

 

[geaux xman]

i have ~25lbs of LR(DR that was previously cycled in a 25g tote) in my QT to keep my ammonia and nitrite level at bay. Just beneficial bacteria on the rock, so no die off. i'm not doing any medication, so no harm to the rock.

~3" bluejaw trigger and 2 1" green chromis in there. bluejaw has been in the QT 3 weeks now. friday makes 1 week at 1.008-1.009.

 

[davidwillis]

The ich are vulerable to hyposalinity during their free swimming stage, although there is debate whether they are also stressed and affected in other stage.

So once the ich is free swimming, how long does it take for the hyposalinity to kill it? If it kills it instantly then once all the ich has fallen off the fish, the fish should be clean (the tank may not though). If it does not kill it instantly, then some may still have time to attach to the fish, and go through the whole cycle again...

I know it isn't a big deal, because I know the treatment, just curious how it all works.

If this bacteria additive does not get the tank cycled fast (I think it has already started working on the ammonia), then I will have to go get some prime as well... I wish I would have known about that earlier, it would have saved me some work and stress..

geaux xman, good to see someone else doing this as well. keep us updated on how it goes.

 

[svejil]

David,

The link you provided from Reef Sanctuary is exactly what you should follow, and should be your guideline.

You should be able to hold 1.080 - 1.090. There is nothing to say that 1.010 is not effective, however I have read many threads where 1.010 did not totally clear up MI, however when lowered to the 1.080 range it did. In those threads there were no reports of any additional stress at the 1.080 level. I have read that 1.080 is the most common threshold, and that lower could present some issues. Best thing to do is have a jug with a specific water level in the jug, and begin adding salt until you get to 1.080, then you know exactly what your water level was in the jug, and exactly how much salt you added.

Seachem Prime, or similar (Amquel) will work to temporarily detoxify your high ammonia levels, but you will need some type of active bacteria to handle it long term. Again, be VERY careful in trying to prevent large swings in your system. In 10 gallons you can vary parameters greatly. Only dose per instructions on the label, and maybe even start lower and re-dose if necessary. Some of the ammonia detox solutions will temporarily deplete oxygen from your water column so be careful, and make sure you have plenty of disturbance at the water surface.

Bacteria in a bottle will become active, but in hypo it is unpredictable as to when that will happen. If you go that route, be sure to only dose per the instructions.

You are in good hands with the info. provided in your link, but if you have any questions, or have anything arise you want to bounce off, please feel free to contact me.

Regards,

Steven

 

[svejil]

Sorry, you had posted while I was writing my last comments so I missed it.

More debate: some say that hypo doesn't "kill" ich, but that the stress from hypo prevents it from surviving, so in essence one could say the hypo "killed" the ich. Other say definitively that hypo (OST) will literally cause the free swimming parasites to "explode" since they can't osmoregulate in hyposaline conditions.

Most of what I have read, and my own personal experience is that at 1.090 - 1.080 - once your fishes are clean, i.e. no visible spots on the fish, the spots do not reappear on the fish. The concensus is that if you do see spots again while in hypo, that something in the process went awry (you messed up or didn't follow the guideline). You will likely remember from your thread on RS that just because you don't see spots, does not always mean your fish does not have any MI parasite. They can be in the gills, however these even drop off to the next stage, so my understanding is that at some point (once the MI cycles completes) all of the parasites will have gone through the "free swimming" stage where they can't survive.

I am sure you have already read this, but once you are finished with your hypo treatment, be very SLOW and careful to bring the salinity back up. Fish are normally not stressed by a rapid decrease in salinity, however they can be easily killed by raising it too quickly. Be very conservative here.

Steven

 

[davidwillis]

sorry, double post

 

[davidwillis]

Thank you very much.

Sorry I have some more questions about cross contamination. If I use something like my hydrometer in my QT, can I just rinse it off and use it in my now fish-less tank, and vise versa?

How about buckets used in water changes, etc?

By the way, I think I should have enough aeration/gas exchange because I have a hob biowheel filter I used on my 55 gal tank. I also have some GAC in there. My bacteria I am adding is stability (the LFS recomended it, and it is for fresh or salt water). I am adding it as directed, one cap full per 10 gal. on the first day, then 1/2 that for the next 7 days.

On a side note, I put an amonia alert in my tank, and it is reading 0.05 (the lowest reading above 0), but my test kit reads 0.5. I am guessing I should go with my test kit.

Thanks again...

BTW, I don't see any spots on any of the fish...

 

[svejil]

Regarding the cross contamination. I would not use anything from you DT in your QT or vice versa. If you had to use the hydrometer in both, I would rinse very well, and let completely dry before using again. I suspect that cross contamination is a very common mistake where hypo fails, and by not utilizing any instruments, buckets, etc. on both, you would eliminate that. Another reason why a refractometer works better here.

Same would go for test kit tubes. Personally, I would not risk it, however I have heard that if you completely rinse off, and dry you would be OK.

I would not use the same buckets for water changes for sure. Also your bacteria should become active, however it may take a while before it becomes fully active in hypo. Could be a couple of days, or up to a few weeks before fully active. Your .5 ammonia reading should be easily managed until that happens.

Glad your fishes have no visible spots. As long as they are eating well, and the right foods, you are on your way. Be sure during hypo to supplement with vitamins, and Selcon. You could also fortify with liquid Vitamin C which is an immune booster. I use the Brightwell Vitamin C supplement and it has worked well for me. It is a fine line between feeding very well, which is critical in any treatment of ill fish, and fighting the consequences of added organics. I personally would overfeed / supplement the food, and fight the organics via water changes, and chemical filtration. In a 10 gallon you can make large effective water changes quite easily.

Glad to help, and let me know if you have any questions as you go along.

One more point. If you haven't already, start a written log so you can document what you do every day, water changes, water parameters, first date all fish are clean with no spots, etc. This will help you know where you are in the process, and if any changes occur, you can check your notes. The minimum wait time in hypo once ZERO spots on ANY fishes is four weeks, although some might opt for an additional week or two. This is easily tracked / determined with a log.

SV

 

[davidwillis]

Thanks. Great advice, I am doing most of it, but there are some things I can do better.

My bacteria additive does not seem to be doing anything.... is it just water? My ammonia was over 1 ppm (with my test kit, but the ammonia alert I have is still only showing the alert level) this morning, so I did an 80% water change.

Anyway, I am going to get prime today if my fish store has any.

Also, I have a yellow tail damsel that is not doing too well, but that is due to having 4 damsels in a 10 gal tank. I put a bunch of pvc pipe, fake rock, etc, but they still fight a lot. This morning I found the yellow tail stuck to the intake of the filter. He is still alive, but I don't know if he will make it. I separated him for now.

Still no spots today, so all is looking good with that.

Also, I had a thought... after the fish have been through the hyposalinity, would it be a good idea to move them to a different tank for the adjustment back up to normal salinity? My thought is that if there are any parasites attached to the glass etc. They may still be alive, and once the water raises back up they could attach to the fish. If you moved the "clean" fish into a new tank that matches the ph, temp, and salinity of the quarantine tank then the only parasites that could be introduced would be what are left on the fish. Also, this would reduce the risk of any contamination issues, because even if the tank received some contaminated water the parasite would have to go through the free swimming stage to get to the fish and would die in the low salinity water, but there is more of a possibility of it being on the glass or rock waiting to release... Anyway, that was just a thought.

 

[svejil]

Hmmm..... I suspected you might have issues in your 10 gallon. Damsels are very aggressive, and in tight quarters, the stress is likely not helping. If you have another tank available, I would split them now.

The bacteria in a bottle are not active, but will become so. The timing of when that happens varies greatly from a couple of days to weeks. Some are better than other, I have heard good reviews of Bio Spira, and Nitromax. LFS obviously want to sell what they have in stock. Should become active soon.

If you can't find Prime, you can find Amquel, or Amquel+ (better IMO), at most WalMarts, and large chain pet stores. Seachem is a very fine product line, but products that detoxify ammonia are not very difficult to find. You just want something that will detoxify ammonia, not so much a FW water conditioner.

There is a possibility, even if slight, that you could still harbor viable ich parasites in / on your decorations once you are ready to start bringing salinity back up. If you had the luxury of another (sterile) tank to do this in, it couldn't hurt, and could possibly be of benefit.

SV

 

[davidwillis]

Yes, the Damsels had a little trouble in the 29, but they found there own spots eventually. The 10 is just too small for them all. The one died, and now there are only 3, and they seem better now.

I got some prime. Do I just put the dosage in (it will be small, because one capfull is for 50 gal). Also, after I put it in will the ammonia not show up on the test kit, or will it still show up, but be non harmful to the fish?

I don't have another tank to put them in for the rise in salinity, but If I thought it would make a big difference I could buy another 10 gal.

How long do the parasites stay on the fish before falling off? I am just wondering, because if you had a second tank, you could just drop the salinity until all the parasites fell off the fish, then put the fish into the second tank and raise the salinity. Possibly making the hypo salinity tank time shorter. I am not going to try this, but just thinking...

 

[davidwillis]

Well I added a dose for 10 gal, but my test kit still reads the same as before I added it. So I am not sure if it takes time to reduce it, or if it still reads on the test kit, but is not toxic.... I tested about 15 min after adding it.

 

[davidwillis]

I tested again this morning, and the ammonia did not go up or down. It is hanging right around .5 ppm. I dosed again with prime (it is supposed to take out up to 1ppm) this morning, and didn't do my water change. The ammonia alert indicator is showing between safe and alert right now.

Nitrites are still 0, so I am guessing the bacteria is still not active.

I also added an air stone to help make sure I don't use up all the oxygen. But today I noticed a white spot on the tail of my flame angel. I am trying to make sure it is not an air bubble, but I think it is a parasite. Maybe I didn't notice it before, or maybe one came back? At any rate I have to wait till it is gone to start my timing (at least 4 weeks with no spots).