Hypo resistant Ich

[BigPhatReefer]

Hi,

Just wondering if anyone had experience of Marine Ich that's shown resistance to hypo salinity?

I've had a Regal Tang in Hypo salinity conditions for approx. 8 weeks (initially as part of a shared hospital tank but now on its own - Tank is 40 litres, bare accept for flower pots to give "hiding space" - salinity has been measured with a refractameter and a mixed diet of flakes, nory, algae/sea weed and garlic infused brine shrimp + other frozen food types). Lighting conditions have been left low and the tank is in a secluded spot without any obvious causes of stress.

I have set the salinity at 1.010 and kept it there for 8 weeks.

Over the last two weeks the tang appeared to be cleared up so this weekend I begin very slowly increasing the salinity (now at 1.015)...

And sure enough the Tang is showing white spots / flashing / increased breathing again 48 hours later.

To me this obviously suggests that all though the Tang had no symptoms she was clearly still infected - all this I understand but surely after 8 weeks the Marine Ich should be gone!

The water I used to increase salinity was from the main display tank which was left fallow for 8 weeks and now has a Pygmy Angel and a Goby in there for the last two weeks and showing no signs of white spot. "“ possible source of contamination but even so any ich present in this water should have been killed when added to lower salinity water (or was this a serious error??).

So my questions is does anybody have personal experience of:

1) The Ich life cycle lasting longer than 8 weeks.
2) Ich that appears resistant to Hypo salinity.
3) Would I best off continuing the salinity treatment or should I know opt for a copper based method?


Appreciate your thoughts so as to help me decide what to do next.

 

[lespaul339]

I had the same thing happen to me but I kept the salinity at 1.008. After 2 months all the fish seemed cured, raised my salinity back up and had another ich outbreak. So now I've resorted to using Cupramine and have been very happy with the results. Fish are cured, and never noticed any side effects from the medication at all. Copper works.

 

[BigPhatReefer]

Thanks LesPaul - guessing guitar might be the other hobby.

One vote for the Cupramine.

 

[lespaul339]

Thanks LesPaul - guessing guitar might be the other hobby.

One vote for the Cupramine.

Yes, I am a guitar enthusiast as well!

 

[snorvich]

Hypo resistant ich exists but is rare. However, hypo is not 1.010, it is 1.009/8. There is always the issue of measurement, of course. Best for ich elimination is tank transfer. Even copper can have issues unless it is carefully monitored and is at the therapeutic dosage for long enough.

 

[BigPhatReefer]

Thanks - yes the meter could be out i suppose - should be easy enough to figure that out.

I haven't seen much before with salinity that low.

Tanks transfer makes sense but its not an option unfortuantely just due to the practicalities of a 3rd tank.

I'm veering towards the copper at the moment - i'll make sure i have a good test kit to go with it if thats the method i do go for.

Guess the other option is drop the salinty backdown and passed 1.010 to 1.008.

 

[snorvich]

Thanks - yes the meter could be out i suppose - should be easy enough to figure that out.

I haven't seen much before with salinity that low.

Tanks transfer makes sense but its not an option unfortuantely just due to the practicalities of a 3rd tank.

I'm veering towards the copper at the moment - i'll make sure i have a good test kit to go with it if thats the method i do go for.

Guess the other option is drop the salinty backdown and passed 1.010 to 1.008.

If using copper or hypo, test daily at the very least.

 

[lespaul339]

If you're going to run hypo do it at salinity of 1.008 with a calibrated refractometer. Buy the calibration fluid, don't just use R.O. water. Make sure the salinity doesn't get ever get above 1.008 or you have to start over.

If you're going to run copper, check the copper levels on a daily basis to make sure the levels are at the correct level. I bought a good copper test kit and check it everyday and add drops as I need to. Sometimes aquarium decorations, and silicone used in a QT tank can absorb some of the copper. That's why you need to check it often.

I haven't tried Tank Transfer Method yet because of the cost of the salt/water and extra tanks and equipment needed. So I can't comment on on TTM. But I can tell you if done correctly copper works and is cheap.

Good luck with your ich treatment, whichever one you decide to use!

 

[E Rosewater]

Am I the only one who feels that the more reasonable cause of "hypo resistant ich" is the lack of ability to properly measure and maintain the proper salinity.

Our refractometers are often known to not be linear from 0 to 35ppt which is why most suggest calibration with a 35ppt standard. Therefore without a correct standard for a RI of 1.008 can we really be sure that our readings are correct?

Also most QTs are relatively small therefore imprecise top off techniques can lead to a salinity drift to "ich safe" levels.

 

[FishN00b83]

DO NOT calibrate the refactometer with calibration fluid, calibrate it to RODI because its closer to .008. You will be WAY off if you calibrate with 35 solution. .008 is where you want to be for hypo.

 

[snorvich]

Am I the only one who feels that the more reasonable cause of "hypo resistant ich" is the lack of ability to properly measure and maintain the proper salinity.

Our refractometers are often known to not be linear from 0 to 35ppt which is why most suggest calibration with a 35ppt standard. Therefore without a correct standard for a RI of 1.008 can we really be sure that our readings are correct?

Also most QTs are relatively small therefore imprecise top off techniques can lead to a salinity drift to "ich safe" levels.

There are three problems using hypo as an ich "cure":

1. Improper measurement of specific gravity
2. Inability to keep specific gravity at hypo levels; if you exceed that level, the clock restarts
3. Inadequate length of treatment

and in rare case hyposalinity resistant strains of cryptocaryon irritans.

 

[E Rosewater]

DO NOT calibrate the refactometer with calibration fluid, calibrate it to RODI because its closer to .008. You will be WAY off if you calibrate with 35 solution. .008 is where you want to be for hypo.

I agree with this, however how many people out there, especially new to the hobby, know this information? Also there's such a narrow window between killing your fish, killing ich, and being ineffective even calibrating to 0 could be off enough that proper salinity is not being maintained.

 

[BigPhatReefer]

Fortunately the hospital tank has a lid - so there is very little / no change in the water level.

However, if the salanity was not low enough this would explain why the treatment wasn't fully effective - i use the term "fully" as there was a 90% reduction in white spot levels visible to the eye - she had literally been infested before treatment, frankly i didnt think she would pull through.

Hypo would be my first choice as its a "natrual" less harmfull method - i am concerned about how long the fish can be kept in a 40 litre tank so i'm looking for the option with the highest chance of sucess now - which i believe is the copper.

 

[BigPhatReefer]

so.... if hypo is very difficult to measure .. and the gauge's prone to not be calibrated correctly etc.

Then is copper and a quality test kit the better approach?

 

[Giovanni]

I have read Hypo can be hard on the kidneys. TTM is much easier and if done correct less stressful than any other method. No real testing equipment needed.

 

[E Rosewater]

TTM is much easier and if done correct less stressful than any other method.

This. It's also, IMO, the easiest to not screw up.

 

[lespaul339]

DO NOT calibrate the refactometer with calibration fluid, calibrate it to RODI because its closer to .008. You will be WAY off if you calibrate with 35 solution. .008 is where you want to be for hypo.

Maybe that's what I did wrong the first time I ran hypo then. I always thought you should calibrate with the solution.

 

[snorvich]

However, if the salanity was not low enough this would explain why the treatment wasn't fully effective - i use the term "fully" as there was a 90% reduction in white spot levels visible to the eye - she had literally been infested before treatment, frankly i didnt think she would pull through.

You are focusing on physical symptoms which quite honestly are irrelevant. The life cycle of ich is such that the white spots drop off in 3-7 days without treatment. However, the life cycle continues and the number of parasites increases exponentially.

 

[snorvich]

I have read Hypo can be hard on the kidneys. TTM is much easier and if done correct less stressful than any other method. No real testing equipment needed.

Hypo at a level (1.008/9) to kill the infective stage of ich can be hard on the kidneys because you are approaching a level that can negtaively affect the osmoregulation of the fish itself. Hypo is also a misnomer: 1.017 is also "hyposalinity" (lower than natural sea water) while it would have no affect on ich it does make it easier for the fish itself to osmoregulate.

 

[BigPhatReefer]

You are focusing on physical symptoms which quite honestly are irrelevant. The life cycle of ich is such that the white spots drop off in 3-7 days without treatment. However, the life cycle continues and the number of parasites increases exponentially.

I understand what your saying but the Tang was continously covered due to the spots presuambly being on different cycles - it did not however deliver the knock out blow i was hoping for.