Hypo'ed display tank. Did I mess up?
- Thread starter prostaff
- Start date
rrrrob
Member
Actually I am trying to help others who may make the same mistakes as I did when I followed all of this sterilization/copper/freshwater dip/hypoing insanity. I prefer a natural approach myself, and I have had a MUCH better experience in the years since I came to the conclusion that ich can be cured without all the chemicals or salinity changes. I used to FREAK OUT at the slightest hint of a white speck on any of my fish. AND I have had people here give me guilt trips for not coppering a sick fish (later found out it was a nutritional issue that, once corrected, the problem went away--this was with a coral beauty becoming discolored. Again, neither copper nor hypoing were the answer, but that's the first thing everyone here tells you to do when you come here with a problem).
But again, this is just MY philosophy, and yes, it's an unpopular one. Just giving another angle someone else may want to look at if they are frustrated with the solutions so many people here feel are gospel. To me, my approach seems SO logical, it's hard to believe I get such grief about it...
But again, this is just MY philosophy, and yes, it's an unpopular one. Just giving another angle someone else may want to look at if they are frustrated with the solutions so many people here feel are gospel. To me, my approach seems SO logical, it's hard to believe I get such grief about it...
Freed
It's what it's
But it is and can be. Your arguments are useless and senseless. Case in point, my QT tank. Perfectly healthy system. Cycled long long time ago before I put my copper band and my six line wrasse in. Zero nitrates, ammonia, etc., etc., pH, alk, calcium all fine and perfect. Perfect system? YES. Did ich show up two weeks into QT? YES. Was hypo performed and did it kill all the ich in and on the fish and in QT? Well of course. When tranferred to another tank with fish already in there that had been QTd did ich magically appear out of nowhere even though the fish in there already and the fish being transferred were "stressed" from their new surroundings? NO!!! Well how about that? What else is there to argue about? NOTHING!!! Please give up your senseless dribble.
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bassist6108
New member
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Vitaly
Active member
Freed...I stumbled into this thread because rrrrob directed me to it from another thread where he is also pushing his personal belief that ich is caused by bad water. I will tell you right now that to argue with this individiual is futile.
In that thread I invited rrrrob to please direct me to any links/articles that support his position. I see that in this thread there are numerous, unfounded claims such as "it is documented that fish in polluted waters succumb to ich"...yet I still see no support for this claim either in that thread or this one.
Again, I encourage all members to discuss ideas and experiences openly. But, when it comes to disease treatment...we should proceed by an evidence based strategy.
"When treatments are applied with an understanding of the parasite’s life cycle, the chances of success increase significantly." (Dickerson, 1994)
In that thread I invited rrrrob to please direct me to any links/articles that support his position. I see that in this thread there are numerous, unfounded claims such as "it is documented that fish in polluted waters succumb to ich"...yet I still see no support for this claim either in that thread or this one.
Again, I encourage all members to discuss ideas and experiences openly. But, when it comes to disease treatment...we should proceed by an evidence based strategy.
"When treatments are applied with an understanding of the parasite’s life cycle, the chances of success increase significantly." (Dickerson, 1994)
Vitaly
Active member
I am not defending anybody.
I am not defending anybody.
Take a deep breath and then re-read my post and hopefully my position will be clear.
My thesis is that we are allowed our opinions. But we should support our claims with some studies/data/facts. He is entitled to a ridiculous argument...but he should support it. So far I have not seen any, but I am hoping that he will provide some or stop perpetuating myths.
With respect to the life cycle, epidemiology and pathology of Cryptocaryon irritans infection the evidence is overwhelming. It is up to the hobbyist to decide how to implement it.
I am not defending anybody.
Take a deep breath and then re-read my post and hopefully my position will be clear.
My thesis is that we are allowed our opinions. But we should support our claims with some studies/data/facts. He is entitled to a ridiculous argument...but he should support it. So far I have not seen any, but I am hoping that he will provide some or stop perpetuating myths.
With respect to the life cycle, epidemiology and pathology of Cryptocaryon irritans infection the evidence is overwhelming. It is up to the hobbyist to decide how to implement it.
treejohnny
New member
the ick debate is one that will go on for a long time.... i believe both are right. from what i have read the ick parasite is in most tanks (espically LFS) and is hard to keep out of our tanks. just because our fish dont get "white spots" dont mean that our tanks our ick free. we can go thru the battle with ick in new fish and hypo treat for 6 weeks (all new fish) and hope that our LR doesnt have any on it.....and not to mention our corals
on the other hand if you keep your water parameters where they belong, fish fed, and not stressed out i believe your fish will not get ick
if you have ick in water and healthy fish.....parasite has no host
if you take 4" tang and put in 10G QT tank good chance he will get ick as tangs will be stressed out in small tank
now all of this info is what i have gathered from alot of geek reading on this forum and am interested in others opinions of my gatherings
on the other hand if you keep your water parameters where they belong, fish fed, and not stressed out i believe your fish will not get ick
if you have ick in water and healthy fish.....parasite has no host
if you take 4" tang and put in 10G QT tank good chance he will get ick as tangs will be stressed out in small tank
now all of this info is what i have gathered from alot of geek reading on this forum and am interested in others opinions of my gatherings
Vitaly
Active member
FIRST: "Stress" or "poor water quality" do not cause Marine Ich.
Yes, such states may lower an animals innate immune response thus impairing their ability to prevent the parasitic theront (free swimming parasite) from establishing itself in the tissue. There is obviously some innate immune and genetic component, otherwise there would not be a difference of infection rates among fish (high in tangs, boxfish and absent in the draggonets). The bottom line and indisputable fact is that...if Ich is not present in a tank, it doesn't matter how muich aggression occurs, how bad the water gets or how starved the fish are...they cannot be infected.
SECOND: "Ich is always present in our tanks"
Just look at the life cycle and think about the requirements of the pathogen.
https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/stepensk/shared/Cryptocaryon.jpg
By definition this pathogen is an obligate parasite; therefore it can not survive nor complete its life cycle without a host. Theronts (free swimming parasite) have been shown to have a very short life span, majority surviving on the order of 12-18 hours.
If your aquarium has no fish in it (fallow) then your tank is free of ich.
If your aquarium does have fish in it...and none of the fish that have occupied the tank have been sick in the last six weeks (upper limit for the entire life cycle) then your tank is free of ich.
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So the question then is:
How does a fish housed in a tank that has been free of infection, and thus free of Cryptocaryon irritans, become infected by Cryptocaryon irritans*** from any of the factors cited in the debate (aggression, water quality, nutrition, immune state, etc)?
*** assuming that one of the stages of the Cryptocaryon life cycle (theront, tomant, tomite) is not untroduced intentionally or accidentally ***
I humbly await a response.
Yes, such states may lower an animals innate immune response thus impairing their ability to prevent the parasitic theront (free swimming parasite) from establishing itself in the tissue. There is obviously some innate immune and genetic component, otherwise there would not be a difference of infection rates among fish (high in tangs, boxfish and absent in the draggonets). The bottom line and indisputable fact is that...if Ich is not present in a tank, it doesn't matter how muich aggression occurs, how bad the water gets or how starved the fish are...they cannot be infected.
SECOND: "Ich is always present in our tanks"
Just look at the life cycle and think about the requirements of the pathogen.
https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/stepensk/shared/Cryptocaryon.jpg
By definition this pathogen is an obligate parasite; therefore it can not survive nor complete its life cycle without a host. Theronts (free swimming parasite) have been shown to have a very short life span, majority surviving on the order of 12-18 hours.
If your aquarium has no fish in it (fallow) then your tank is free of ich.
If your aquarium does have fish in it...and none of the fish that have occupied the tank have been sick in the last six weeks (upper limit for the entire life cycle) then your tank is free of ich.
--------
So the question then is:
How does a fish housed in a tank that has been free of infection, and thus free of Cryptocaryon irritans, become infected by Cryptocaryon irritans*** from any of the factors cited in the debate (aggression, water quality, nutrition, immune state, etc)?
*** assuming that one of the stages of the Cryptocaryon life cycle (theront, tomant, tomite) is not untroduced intentionally or accidentally ***
I humbly await a response.
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rrrrob
Member
So the question then is:
How does a fish housed in a tank that has been free of infection, and thus free of Cryptocaryon irritans, become infected by Cryptocaryon irritans*** from any of the factors cited in the debate (aggression, water quality, nutrition, immune state, etc)?
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THAT'S NOT THE QUESTION AT ALL. I am sure you can sterilize a tank from ich. And I don't believe I have said here that ich, a living organism, will arise by spontaneous generation (i.e., that living organisms arise out of thin air). What I am trying to tell you is that fish have natural immunity to ich when in a clean/stress-free environment. Again, all the hypoing/copper in the world will at best address a sympton, not a cause. You folks seem to be saying that the cause doesn't matter--get rid of the ich and the poor water quality/stress issue won't matter. For the well-being of your animals, I implore you to rethink this.
How does a fish housed in a tank that has been free of infection, and thus free of Cryptocaryon irritans, become infected by Cryptocaryon irritans*** from any of the factors cited in the debate (aggression, water quality, nutrition, immune state, etc)?
------------------------
THAT'S NOT THE QUESTION AT ALL. I am sure you can sterilize a tank from ich. And I don't believe I have said here that ich, a living organism, will arise by spontaneous generation (i.e., that living organisms arise out of thin air). What I am trying to tell you is that fish have natural immunity to ich when in a clean/stress-free environment. Again, all the hypoing/copper in the world will at best address a sympton, not a cause. You folks seem to be saying that the cause doesn't matter--get rid of the ich and the poor water quality/stress issue won't matter. For the well-being of your animals, I implore you to rethink this.
Black Mammoth
Premium Member
I also believe that diseases, parasites, etc evolve quicker than our knowledge about them. We have all kinds of strains of virus for humans. I wouldn't be surprised stuff like ich (although not a virus) may have several mutations where we see different results.
I would suggest keeping the tank stable and QTing the fish would probably be the safest solution. Sure, there could be ich in the system when you are done...maybe not, but if the tank is stable, there's a chance the fish will stay healthy. Here is my thought.
QT the fish and treat with hypo & copper. Becareful on the copper as not all fish can handle copper. Also, make sure you fish have ich and not something like velvet or...crap...I forget...there is something angels get that looks like ich, but isn't...actually copper will make that worse. Anyway, QT the fish...keep the main tank fish free for at least 6 weeks. In the meantime I would suggest a UV sterilizer with low flow to kill at the bacteria level.
All of this may be extreme and may not get rid of it for good, but I believe this is the most proven way.
I would suggest keeping the tank stable and QTing the fish would probably be the safest solution. Sure, there could be ich in the system when you are done...maybe not, but if the tank is stable, there's a chance the fish will stay healthy. Here is my thought.
QT the fish and treat with hypo & copper. Becareful on the copper as not all fish can handle copper. Also, make sure you fish have ich and not something like velvet or...crap...I forget...there is something angels get that looks like ich, but isn't...actually copper will make that worse. Anyway, QT the fish...keep the main tank fish free for at least 6 weeks. In the meantime I would suggest a UV sterilizer with low flow to kill at the bacteria level.
All of this may be extreme and may not get rid of it for good, but I believe this is the most proven way.
Thank you all for the input. It was quite interesting hearing both sides. I lost 8 of the 12 fish but it seems the system is finally stabilizing. I believe the hypo treatment worked for the ick but the faulty test kit caused me to be too late with what i believe to be the cause of death, Ammonia poisoning.
This is what I have decided to do. Please let me know what you think.
I am setting up a 2100 gal system, 2 displays (1000g reef and 680 FOWLR plus 400gsump plus 100g fuge). I had the brilliant idea to collect all the fish first before introducing simultaneously into the new tanks to avoid aggression.
New plan- I will cycle the new system in hypo salinity and slowly introduce the fish I have collected so far. In a way, using the new system as one large qt system. The corals and clams will be left in the old system for 6 weeks until the new system has been slolwly stepped up to regular salinity after the 6 week period. Any new addditions after this period will be qted in hypo for 6 weeks before addition to the main system.
A UV sterilizer will also be used on the new system
This is what I have decided to do. Please let me know what you think.
I am setting up a 2100 gal system, 2 displays (1000g reef and 680 FOWLR plus 400gsump plus 100g fuge). I had the brilliant idea to collect all the fish first before introducing simultaneously into the new tanks to avoid aggression.
New plan- I will cycle the new system in hypo salinity and slowly introduce the fish I have collected so far. In a way, using the new system as one large qt system. The corals and clams will be left in the old system for 6 weeks until the new system has been slolwly stepped up to regular salinity after the 6 week period. Any new addditions after this period will be qted in hypo for 6 weeks before addition to the main system.
A UV sterilizer will also be used on the new system
Does anybody forsee any problems that may arise from this?
How long can fish survive in hypo?
Are there any known parasites of fish that can survive 6-8weeks of hypo only to infest the display after that period is over?
I intend on buying whatever other fish I want and adding them directly to the hypo display
How long can fish survive in hypo?
Are there any known parasites of fish that can survive 6-8weeks of hypo only to infest the display after that period is over?
I intend on buying whatever other fish I want and adding them directly to the hypo display
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