Hyposalinity for 3 weeks and Ich is back

[guyguerra]

Iv'e been doing hyposalinity for almost 3 weeks at 11ppt. Ich showed up on a Tang again 3 days ago, now two butterfly fish also have it. This is my first time doing this, but clearly, it is not working. I'm getting very frustrated and do not know if I should leave the fish in the tank or pull them out and do the transfer method (which will be a lot of work). Mine is not regular Ich, it's super Ich.......

 

[Randall_James]

You do not say a thing about your QT.

I use an bare 10G tank with some plastic condos for the fish to hide in. Every morning I kill the pumps, vacuum the bottom of the tank, evict the fish from the condo and clean it also.
I keep the tank at 1.009 (refractometer) and 82 degrees PH8.3 and do 25% water change each day. (mostly replace what was vacuumed out in the morning.

 

[guyguerra]

My setup is not a sterile as your. I have a 120 gallon tank with sand bottom and have some rock in the tank. You can see pictures in my gallery, but the pipe has been replaced with rock. My salinity was closer to 13 ppt, now it is exactly at 11 ppt. I was loosing fish due to undetermined causes and Ich showed up again after three weeks, so I felt that giving some natural environment might reduce there stress and help their immune defenses. I'm not sure if this is helping the tomonts to continue their cycle. It is helping the fish by giving them an environment that is more comfortable. I tried using a 5 gallon bucket with the worst fish, a hippo tang, but he died in a day. I am dealing with four butterflys and 2 clowns. I have a 50 gallon tank that is ready to go, but I'm afraid that moving them to a smaller setup will also have potential problems. I wonder if I have a strain that is resistant to lower salinity.My last hope is that when the ich falls off this time, the cycle will stop. Some of the fish show no signs of ich, but I assume if one has it, then all have it. Is this correct? Can the sand and rock be causing a problem? It seems that low salinity is low salinity, and the rock shouldn't matter. Would you move the fish that show signs and leave the others. Regardless, it's in the tank and needs to be dealt with. Help?

 

[Randall_James]

I am sure that the sand bottom must go.

 

[guyguerra]

Randall, what effect do you think the sand is having and how can it help the tomonts to develop? I understand the tomonts will attach to anything, and the sand is still in the low salinity, so why would it help the ich cycle? I appreciate your opinion and advice. Guy

 

[guyguerra]

Guy, I have not pulled anything out of the tank so its loaded with rock and about 2 inches of sand. The ich dropped off a couple of days after hitting 10ppt and hasnt come back since. Granted I had two mysterious deaths afterwards which i do not believe were ich related. The tank is fairly new and i was dumb not to quarantine anything, hence my problems.

This is a quote from another thread from a giy that was succseful using hypo in his display tank. I am hoping I will have the same results. Do you fell this was luck?

 

[Randall_James]

Hypo in your display will kill your LR. Thinking about it, I suppose you could pull your live rock, put it in the qt tank with normal tank water then put the display into hypo. (This is provided you have never had a copper treatment in qt tank)

I would however siphon the sand out also. I believe that you need to be able to vacuum the bottom of that tank every morning. I know it is not the most pleasing look (bare tank) but you need to eliminate this pest from your system.

I to have seen plenty of posts about cures by using ginger and garlic. The biggest problem to any of these is that they do not know if it was even ich they were working on in the first place.

The problem with quote you have is that ich is going to fall off the fish within a few days no matter what the salinity is. It is just a question of "when" you noticed the problem in the first place.

I tend to go along with the tried and true advice of the pros. A guy dumping ginger or garlic in his home science experiment salt tank just does not instill much confidence in their methods.

They then jump on and post about these "Miracle" cures with methodology that frankly is no better than waving a wand over the tank. Luck I am sure is a big part of the program and I am sure the truth be known, these same guys often have a return of the problem or loose fish anyway.

I think the main moral to this is to qt all livestock.

 

[guyguerra]

The rock I put in was dead already, dried out and washed off (due to it being used in a copper treated tank). I agree about the garlic. If hyposalinity stops the life cycle of ich, there should be no need to vacuum the tank daily, though I agree it would be one more defense against the parasites propagation. What you describe sounds like using two methods, hypo and the transfer method (moving a fish to a different tank every three days 9, as your cleaning your tank out so often. Are you saying that hyposalinity by itself is only a partial treatment and that tomonts will still live thru it and therefore need to be vacuumed out daily? I vacuum the sand every three or four days along with water changes. I believe with the stress the fish have been thru, that moving them now will be worse. To me, hypo is hypo, and if it's effective, it should stop the parasites cycle whether it's attached itself to glass or sand or rock. Why would this not be true? You can bet that I'll never put a fish in my display again without QT for six weeks after this mess.

 

[Randall_James]

Yes it is just one more move towards keeping the parasite out. I would think that keeping the sand cleaned is tougher than keeping a bb clean. I am not sure if pockets of higher salinity could exist in the sand itself or not.
My only concern is that you had your tank in hypo for 3 weeks and the parasite came back. This would lead me to think that they found a safe place somewhere. That answer needs to come from someone with a lot more knowledge about this than I have.

 

[diverdan814]

I now use hypo for 8 wks.

 

[guyguerra]

Diverdan, how long does it take for you to eliminate the parasite. I agree with randall, something I'm doing might be causing a problem. On the other hand, there are strains of Ich that can withstand lower salinities now. I can't tell which situation I have.

 

[mike89t]

I used hypo at 1.009 for about 6 weeks. Haven't seen Ich return and it's been about 1 month now. 3 Weeks isn't long enough.

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html

Hyposalinity should be maintained for at least 4 weeks but 6 weeks is preferable. If there is any reinfection of the "Ich" during the treatment, the treatment should be extended to at least 4 weeks after the disappearance of the last cyst.

 

[diverdan814]

guyguerra- I just read that in a study (cannot recall where but on this forum) claimed that a ich lasted for 6 weeks in a tank.

I have had success with 4 and 6 week periods- but also had failures. I am now watching a tank that went 8 weeks in hypo (8 weeks from the time I observed the last spot on a fish) and all seems well.

 

[Randall_James]

Speaks volumes for quarantine doesnt it

 

[29GallonReefer]

Why not go with RId-Ich. Found at a lot of LFS. We use in our shop daily whenever any fish has ich. DOse for 7 days and most of the time the fish are just fine. Ich is a very cureable disease. Just need to pick up on it fast.

 

[guyguerra]

I am now at 5 1/2 weeks of hyposalinity treatment at 11ppt. I was on vacation last week and had my son maintain the tank, which he did a good job at. I got back two days ago, and the salinity was perfectly held at 11ppt. The two fish that showed ich still have it, and it is worse. The fish are still acting very healthy. It seems that the hypo is having little affect on the tomonts. I will continue on to the 8 week point, but I am not optimistic about the outcome. It seems that at the 8 week point I'll have to increase the salinity, and I'm concerned that the ich will get worse. On the other hand, the fish are living with it, so I wonder if I'll always have it, and the fish will continue to live with it.

 

[leebca]

Guy,

Well, you have me stumped. The only thing I know of to do at this point is get ready for a proper copper treatment.

You had an unusual introduction into combating this disease, if I remember correctly. You began with a copper treatment but didn't control the copper content. Then you got into the hyposalinity.

Hyposalinity does treat Marine Ich, but it isn't 'perfect.' It is so rare to not succeed that I don't worry about it. Is there any doubt that it is in fact MI? Have you posted photos of it?

I would be prepared to do a copper treatment. Get the medication of your choice and the copper test kit. Right after you raise the salinity (over a long time period), add the copper.

I'm sorry I didn't see your original post of early this month.

 

[guyguerra]

Hi Lee. I wonder if the bad start with the copper gave the parasite a better foothold in the system and some immunity to lower salinity. I was keeping the SG at 1.018 at the recommendation of my LFS. Looking back I wonder if the 2 months at this sg helped the parasite become accustomed to lower salinity. I am confident it's ich, and the owner of the LFS came to my house and verified it for me. I am preparing to start a Cupramine treatment and will know how to do it properly this time. Hope all is well with you, Guy

 

[leebca]

I thought you were going to ask that question.

I thought about it. I've known several people who did not successfully treat MI with copper and switched to hypo with success. So I don't think the pattern you had is unusual insofar as going from copper to hypo.

I hope that was a typo. Did you mean 1.008 or do you mean 1.018?

Microbe genetic variances don't quite happen like the concept of 'growing accustomed to' would imply. Amongst the MI organisms you had, one (or more) would have had to genetically preferred or could live at the low salinity when it was created. Natural selection would have favored that organism strain in the low salinity and it would continue to live and reproduce, making more microbes with the same genetic proclivities.

Like insects, microbes reproduce in very large numbers. Nature throws in a variance now and then (a random probability based upon the strength of that trait's genetic code) of a suppressed trait. In this way, nature allows the oddball offspring a chance to survive if the environment favors the trait that has shown up.

Like a black tree moth. Every 10,000 of them, one is white. On the black bark, the black moths are camouflaged from their bird predators. The white one gets eaten pretty fast! But a fungus breaks out on the trees one season and turns the bark white. Now the black ones stand out and the white ones are camouflaged. The white survives to go on to make more white ones to match the new environment. Nature no longer 'favors' the black ones, but that genetic trait is still standing by should the tree bark go back to black. :rollface:

Your copper treatment in a tank with sand will be challenging. Remember to monitor the copper content closely and keep it in the right range. There will be a loss of copper to the substrate/sand, and you should consider not using that sand again, after the treatment is over.

Obviously not all is well with you. But I believe it will get better. I am fine.

Regards,

 

[guyguerra]

The 1.018 that I mentioned was the sg that I was keeping in the tank prior to the Ich breakout. I wouldn't do this again, but that's what the LFS said was best to keep the tank at.

I still haven't decided to add copper yet, but it seems like I should. Since I thought that hyposalinity would work without other efforts, I only did water changes to reduce nitrates. Now I realize that more is needed. I am going to do large water changes and sand vacuuming every three days. I'll also replace the dead rock (I'm keeping 4 pieces in the tank and 1 plastic plant) every three days. This seems like it has to reduce the number of tomonts. It still seems like the parasite is partially resistant to low salinity and that at best I'll keep up with it, but will not eliminate it.
You mentioned raising the salinity before starting copper, yet Seachem says it's safe to keep the salinity low while treating with Cupramine.
The sand and dead rock that I'm using went thru the 1st copper treatment and will be tossed when finished (rock will be used in the qt). My 225 gallon tank will be here in 5 or 6 weeks and I want to make sure these fish are completely rid of the parasite before introducing them in the new tank.