Hyposalinity for 3 weeks and Ich is back

[leebca]

It is always best to follow the medication manufacturer's advice. If theirs can be used in low salinity, then they should know. It's not uncommon for medications to have an abnormal affect when the water is at abnormal conditions.

Your specific gravity of 1.018 is clear now. Did your LFS give a reason for that advice?

You've never vacuumed before? This suggestion was given some time back, I thought. It's usually a good idea to vacuum right after you don't see the white spots. Then you know the trophonts dropped off. Vacuuming then might pick up trophonts entering their next stage or even released tomites. But at this point in time, from your description of the infestation, I would wonder if it would make any difference.

 

[Randall_James]

I have heard this 1.018 from lfs before myself.
"Parasites are less likely to survive and we have fewer problems when we keep our salinity lower"

My regular lfs keeps their tanks at 1.017. I am not sure if it is that or not, but I have never had a problem with their livestock.

I am more apt to believe that they just take better care of the water system myself and/or their suppliers are of good quality. (knocking on wood) The tanks get serviced daily by the small army of teenagers they have working in the store at any given time.

 

[guyguerra]

"Parasites are less likely to survive and we have fewer problems when we keep our salinity lower"

This is what my LFS told me also. Randall, is that the salinity you keep your tanks? Most advice I've seen on this site recommends keeping it at a more natural level, which is probably what I'll do once this is done.

Lee, on vacuuming, I do it each time I do a water change, which was once every 10 days or so. Now I intend to do it every three days to hopefully pull some of the tomonts out. I also wonder if the tank is too infested and that it's just too late to continue treatment in this tank. My 50 gallon QT is fully cycled and ready for fish, but I'm afraid that the additional stress of moving them might cause more harm. I also don't know if the 50 gallon can take the instant bio load of all these fish at once. Seems like a crap shoot (sorry, I just got back from Las Vegas) either way, so I'll continue treatment in this tank for another week and see if things improve.

 

[Randall_James]

I keep my tank at 1.027,

Do not move fish to the clean tank under any circumstance until you are sure they are clean and healthy. Last thing you need is to contaminate the display again.

I vacuumed my tank every morning. The expense is minimal due to the 1.09 salinity. (just at time issue) It also removes excess food, poop and hopefully parasites.

Also keeping the water fresh every day like that keeps the parameters in check. Nitrates are always a problem for me in my qt and I am guessing it is just the lack of LR and other biofiltering.

I have run the 3 day treatment regimen of "rid ich" as I drop my salinity. The fish do not like this stuff for what ever reason but they tolerate it. It requires 3 successive days of treatment at the same strength. Does it work? Not sure but my fish cleared up.

 

[leebca]

Guy,

I think I'm getting a better picture. You've run your aquarium at a lower-than-normal salinity. When Marine Ich invaded, that MI was already accustomed to the lower salinity. So, they were already 'prepared' for a hypo treatment.

It is the downside of maintaining fish/aquarium at a lower salinity. It doesn't prevent disease but it can make a hypo treatment less effective.

Those who take advice to run their systems at salinity below the ocean's level are not providing an optimum habitat for their specimens. And those who do this to keep their fish free of disease are taking bad advice. I run my system at 1.022 sp. gr. and the reason for that is that I run a FOWLR system and want to make it a bit easier to maintain oxygen in the water and to make it easier on the fish to drink their freshwater.

As soon as you're set to treat with copper, I'd begin to raise the salinity and begin the copper treatment. I'm inclined to think now that no amount of hypo treatment will eradicate the MI strain you've got growing in there.

Your 50 can't go from 0 bio-load to several fishes. Start an artificial bio-load in your 50 by adding ammonia or food to kick off the cycling. But, like Randall_James said, make sure your fish are clean of disease before you put them in there.

 

[guyguerra]

"Parasites are less likely to survive and we have fewer problems when we keep our salinity lower"

This is what I think also. I started introducing Cupramine.

What salinity would you increase to? Would you slowly bring the salinity back to normal, or keep it lower, which might be easier on the fish? That would be the only reason I can think of to keep it low, and I'm nor sure that low salinity is any real help at all now.

 

[guyguerra]

You've run your aquarium at a lower-than-normal salinity. When Marine Ich invaded, that MI was already accustomed to the lower salinity. So, they were already 'prepared' for a hypo treatment.

Please disregard the quote in the previous post, I pasted the wrong sentence. This is what I was agreeing with. Guy

 

[Randall_James]

I would say a minimum of 1.022, I keep my reef tank at 1.027 but that is a coral tank.

 

[leebca]

Guy,

Bring your sp. gravity back up to the mark you will be putting your display tank sp. gravity at. Like I wrote, I keep FOWLR so I keep mine at 1.022. You would want it higher if you're keeping a reef aquarium.

Be sure to go very slow with raising the salinity. I wouldn't keep it low for the sake of the fish, but I would go very slow at raising it, so you can start the copper treatment when you're at the 1.018 mark and you still raise the sp. gr. with water changes over the following week.

 

[guyguerra]

It's been a month now since I raised my salinity to 1.022 and added Cupramine. I did it over a 7 day period. All signs of ich are gone and the remaining fish are very healthy looking. I plan to continue treatment for 2 more weeks, then transfer the fish to my 50 gallon QT while I change my new 230 gallon tank that should be arriving then. One lesson learned is to use the manufactures test kit for the medication that is being used. If my LFS would have carried Seachems copper test kit, I would have seen these results the first time I used it.

The 50 gallon tank looks great, since its had 10 weeks to let the LR grow some nice algae and develop a good bio system. I'll start the move by moving my two clowns in two weeks, then add the Foxface a week later, then the two butterfly's the week after that. I know that's a lot of fish for the 50 gallon, but I'm prepared to do frequent water changes. From my experience so far, it seems like I would be better of in the long run by keeping the fish out of the new 230 gallon tank for a while to let it develop a good bio system. I'll have to see how the 50 gallon holds up with the 5 fish that will be in it.

 

[Randall_James]

Cupramine usually requires 14 days as I recall. Make sure what ever it is, you follow the directions to the letter.
Is pretty critical to use the supplier of the coppers test kits as there are different copper tests

 

[leebca]

Guy,

Sounds like you're finally getting the upper hand. You've come 'full circle' with copper.

Good luck!

 

[guyguerra]

HI Lee, I just got back from a month long honeymoon (I got married June 5th) and saw your reply. My Ich battle is over for now and all the survivors look great! I've moved the Foxface and two clowns into my 50 gallon tank and will move the Ariga Butterfly and Copperband when the 230 gallon tank arrives in two weeks (my existing 120 is going to my brother). Both of my tanks look great now. I added two corals to the 50 gallon 1 1/2 months ago, which are also doing well. Once the 230 gallon is set up all fish, rock and corals will move to that one and the 50 gallon will function as a QT to slowly introduce new fish into the large tank (one fish at a time). There were times when I thought I made a mistake getting into this hobby, but I am really enjoying it, and have learned a lot, so far.
Guy

 

[leebca]

Congratulations on your marriage. Good news about your fish.

Live long and prosper!

 

[TerryB]

There are a couple of unusual strains from Tawian that seem to appear occasionally now in the trade. If you maintained the salinity consistently at 14ppt or less for a month and the fish still have ich then there are a couple of possibilities. You may be dealing with one of the resistant strains or it may be something other than ich.

Your fish should not be stressed from hypo as long as you check your pH daily and add a buffer as needed. The reason that I do not suggest mixing hypo with copper is because the pH tends to drop in hypo. Copper becomes increasingly toxic when the pH falls.

If you have encountered one of the unusual strains from Tawian then you still have the option of the transfer method or Cupramine. Cupramine is the only copper that I trust, but it still needs to be tested twice a day for the first couple of weeks and once a day after that until treatment is completed.
I am sure that you have figured a lot of this out by now since your fish are well now. Good job hanging in there.

Cheers,
Terry B

 

[zens]

out of curiosity what else is there that looks like ich? I seem to have
a resistant strain on one of my qt'd fish. 10 weeks in hypo at 1.008
and as soon as I start raising the salinity the specs start to appear again. doesn't look full blown but I can clearly see maybe 10 or so salt grain like raised spots.

 

[guyguerra]

I've seen sand on my Mandarin that looked like ich, I've had spots that break out on my Kole tang every two months or so, then go away, and I believe there is some hypochondriac situations that we falsely diagnose as Ich. I have stopped treating my fish so quickly. I used to start treatment after seeing one spot. I have Qt'd all my fish, but did end up with a minor ich problem in my 230 gallon tank. It went away with just good maintenance and vitamins, and hasn't been back. There are always going to be losses when buying new fish, and we might blame it on ich, but I question that, and believe some fish just wont adapt to captivity. I also know people that loose more fish than others, which I believe is the difference of how we take care of our tanks. I have a 230 and 50 gallon reefs, and have stopped treating for ich. I've seen a group of three new fish go into QT, 1 dies and two live. after 6 weeks they are healthy and are placed in their new home. I haven't lost a fish other than the weak ones in a long time, and both my reef tanks have very healthy looking fish. I was new to the hobby two years ago, and get a lot of compliments on my tanks and the myriad of fish, corals fuge stuff, etc. from people doing it longer than me. When I started I killed a lot of fish "treating for ich". I believe the stress we put on these poor fish that go thru all they do before ending up in our tanks is hard enough. To then subject them to hypo or copper is making matters worse IMO. !0 weeks of hypo is a long time, and if he dies it'll get chalked up in the ick column. I say keep your QT as normal as possible, and give them good care and nutrition. The healthy ones will survive. By the way, I have no idea where the Ich that showed up in my 230 came from. All fish are QT'd, so you very well will see it in your display some day. Do the best to keep it out, but if it gets in, don't overreact, you'll be sure to increase your looses if you do. Others will disagree, and start treatments at the first spot, but I am convinced I am right.

 

[Triggerfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7955726#post7955726 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by guyguerra
if it gets in, don't overreact, you'll be sure to increase your looses if you do. I am convinced I am right.

old thread eh..

can you define what you mean by "overreact" please?

 

[guyguerra]

Old problem.......

 

[thuddly]

"The live rock itself will survive the treatment, but any invertebrates living on and in it will be killed."

As stated in the reference page provided above.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=4748044#post4748044 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randall_James
Hypo in your display will kill your LR. Thinking about it, I suppose you could pull your live rock, put it in the qt tank with normal tank water then put the display into hypo. (This is provided you have never had a copper treatment in qt tank)

I would however siphon the sand out also. I believe that you need to be able to vacuum the bottom of that tank every morning. I know it is not the most pleasing look (bare tank) but you need to eliminate this pest from your system.

I to have seen plenty of posts about cures by using ginger and garlic. The biggest problem to any of these is that they do not know if it was even ich they were working on in the first place.

The problem with quote you have is that ich is going to fall off the fish within a few days no matter what the salinity is. It is just a question of "when" you noticed the problem in the first place.

I tend to go along with the tried and true advice of the pros. A guy dumping ginger or garlic in his home science experiment salt tank just does not instill much confidence in their methods.

They then jump on and post about these "Miracle" cures with methodology that frankly is no better than waving a wand over the tank. Luck I am sure is a big part of the program and I am sure the truth be known, these same guys often have a return of the problem or loose fish anyway.

I think the main moral to this is to qt all livestock.