Hyposalinity for Marine Velvet ?

[blueplanet]

I intend to adopt a Hyposalinity treatment on my main diaplay as Ich is evident on the fish. They are : emperor angel, Regal angel, Coral beauty, red bar anthia, red shoulder fairy wrasse, firefish, cleaner wrasse (this fella has been with us for 1.5 years -- eats pellets more than parasites...?? ). The tank is a FOWLR.

I understand I have to bring SG down to 1.010 and I am at 1.018 now.

The question to me is : could it be Marine Velvet instead of ICh OR I have both?? Cannot tell with untrained eyes. .

The question I need to ask here is: Is Hyposalinity effective in treating Marine Velvet? Any help???

 

[TerryB]

The first step is forming a probable diagnosis. Please give us all the details that you can think of about the symptoms, water parameters, history of the tank, etc.

TerryB1

 

[leebca]

Hyposalinity with live rock is not smart. The microfauna on/in the LR will likely die and create a major pollution issue. If you perform hyposalinity with live rock, you will be converting it to the quality of base rock. Do you really want to throw away all that money. . .AND life?

You didn't mention if you have substrate in the tank. What I wrote above for LR also applies to all the worms and pods that might be in your substrate. Most of them will die and pollute your system. Lastly, the same applies to all snails and shrimp you might have in the tank.

As Terry wrote, diagnosis is important and fundamental. Take a look at photos of fish with Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans). The white spots are larger than the spots of Marine Velvet. The Marine Ich spots are the size of grains of salt. The white spots of Marine Velvet are like talc or powdered sugar. Certainly you can see the difference between these spots? Sometimes Marine Velvet doesn't even look like spots, but the fish gives off an off-color sheen, because the spots are so close together or the fish's mucous response is gone into 'overtime.'

This photo library may help you:
http://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthread.php?t=127010

Next, your hyposalinity treatment needs to be a salinity range of 11ppt or 12ppt. Your target is too high.

Lastly, hyposalinity has little effect against Marine Velvet. If your fish have Marine Velvet, by the time you drop the salinity, the fish will be dead or knocking on Death's door. MV spreads quickly and kills quickly.

 

[TerryB]

Lee,

Just curious to know if you see a significant difference in the effectiveness of hyposalinity from a salinity of 14ppt to a salinity of 12ppt? Do you prefer 11 or 12ppt over 14ppt just as an added precaution. Are you seeing a difference between 12 and 14ppt with other external parasites?

Terry B

 

[leebca]

Terry,

My experience comes from the early '70s work I did at OSU regarding ornamental fish and MI. I had a multi-pronged approach including: hyposalinity, dips/baths, antibiotics, and garlic.

I experimented with salinity from 7ppt to the then recommended 16ppt at 0.5ppt increments. Experiments were conducted two ways: fish tanks with infected fishes and, capturing the Theronts and introducing varying salinity solutions under real-time microscopic examination.

Graphs showed the following:
Microscopic results: Peak destroyer of the Theronts was 9ppt and lowering the ppt didn't appreciably improve death rate. This was the 0X level. At 16ppt 9X would survive long enough for (presumably) another cycle. At 13.5ppt 6X would survive; at 12ppt 2X would survive at 11ppt 1.3X would survive.

If I remember properly, statistically, the difference between a 12ppt salinity and a 14ppt salinity treatment would require up to 5 weeks additional time to account for the 'stubborn' MI Theronts to keep reducing in numbers until "0" survived. There was an increased risk in this time factor of Natural Selection kicking in and giving an advantage to MI more tolerant of lower salinity.

Now, the differences in the tanks: Below 11ppt the fish were not functioning properly. So the base line had to be 11ppt. The microscopic work and actual tank data correlated above this baseline.

The success differential between the 11ppt and 12ppt can be as high as three life cycles (or as little as no difference). The 11ppt, when religiously held in stable water effected an averaged result of 1.4 life cycles. So, roughly the difference between 11 and 12 was that 11 was up to twice as successful as 12. Half the data showed a benefit with 11, half the data showed no difference. So. . .12 was acceptable -- just might require longer treatment (up to 3 weeks longer). But the 11 and 12 data was significantly different than the 14 and 16 results.

I'm sorry, I have no data nor observations regarding other parasites, worms, flukes or other externals. I made sure I was only dealing with MI infected fishes, without secondary issues. In my use of hyposalinity, I only used it for accurately diagnosed MI and never observed hypo's affect on other conditions.

Work then, and subsequent work I've reviewed, substantiates the concept that hyposalinity stresses the MI and is not 100% lethal. And, like stress on any lifeform, it has a natural variance of success (or failure). Tanks and organisms can vary and those variables enter into the effectiveness of the salinity treatment, regardless of the salinity.

Because of all the above, I recommend 11ppt or 12ppt to stress the MI Theront as hard as possible and as quickly as possible. The longer the treatment the greater the likelihood that Natural Selection will step up and provide a more robust MI. I don't believe in giving this 'bug' any advantage.

Hopes this answer your ? If not, ask. :rollface:

 

[TerryB]

Lee,

Thanks for sharing your experience with me. As you probably know, some reef fish can withstand long-term exposure to a salinity of 7ppt. I can think of one experiment using Imperator angels. They did not exhibit any indication of stress at 7ppt, but did not survive long at 5ppt. I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t know how other species of reef fish would respond to being kept at 7ppt salinity for a month or more. It is reasonable to assume that many species would not do well since the normal osmoregulatory processes would appear to reverse.

So your approach was to kill Cryptocaryon irritans at the theront stage rather than the tomont stage? A salinity of 16ppt reportedly interrupts the life cycle of CI (MI) at the tomont stage. It really would not be necessary to kill CI at more than one stage of development.

I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t have a problem going with 11 or 12ppt, but I am not sure that it is necessary. I know that you caution that water quality is difficult to maintain in hyposaline conditions. Have you found the water quality more difficult to maintain at 11ppt verses 14ppt? I am sure that you must have read the article in Advanced Aquarist about the public aquarium that quarantines all new boney reef fish at 11ppt. Letââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s say 10ppt is dangerous to many species: 11ppt salinity wouldnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t leave a margin for error.

Terry B

 

[leebca]

Terry,

All evidence at the time pointed to the most vulnerable stage of the MI to be their free-swimming Theront stage. The Tomonts were considered to be cyst-like, and resilient to hyposalinity. So that's where the work was focused. For my way of thinking the lower salinity is a second bite of the apple--a second chance to stop the cycle. In the fish tank experiments, the cycle would have stopped at "Y" stage (unknown) but those results matched the known Theront response to varying salinity. Not necessary? Perhaps. Except it's getting closer to being a necessity by virtue of Natural Selection beginning to favor the parasites that can withstand low salinity. Or. . .Tomonts are slipping through the treatment already. It's still only a stress, not a lethal, treatment.

You've hit upon the problem with running an 11ppt salinity -- control. It doesn't leave much room for error. It's a problem between what I know to be optimum, compared to what I believe the average aquarist can accomplish. But going too low usually isn't the error; it's letting the salinity drift higher.

At 14ppt there is still some buffering ability left in the thinned mix. The bio-filter can still keep up to a small ammonia load. The lower the salinity the more the buffering ability is lost and the bacteria cease to metabolize properly. So, in general the lower the salinity the greater the challenge to hold the water at stability. Mechanical/Chemical ammonia controls would have a major stabilizing affect. I suspect that a few aquarists performing hyposalinity run into systemic bacterial infections brought on by ammonia and nitrite factors. Others just perceive their fish is in trouble and blame the hyposalinity or the fact that their fish is forced to endure a QT.

I have no (direct) information regarding how long the fishes can handle the lower salinity, except that they came through anywhere from a 6-week to a 3-month treatment at 11ppt but had problems in that time range at a 9ppt salinity.

The article you mention is a report on the activities of the Oakland Aquarium. Not only do they use this salinity in quarantine, but you'll find that they actually operate some of their display tanks at this same salinity, for months. Part of their claim is that this salinity fights back many of the pathogens that are or have a protozoan stage. They have also experienced MI outbreaks when salinity made it up to 16ppt by accident.

 

[TerryB]

Lee,

I agree that some strains of MI have shown the ability to adapt to a wider range of temperatures and salinities (as low as 5ppt). We have to adjust for this and that is the reason that I developed my variation of the transfer method (hypo-transfer). I believe that we need alternative treatments that the parasite cannot adapt to that the fish can withstand.

My thoughts match yours that the water quality gets more difficult to control as the salinity is reduced. I wonder how many hobbyists may loose fish at 11ppt due to the instability of the water at such a low salinity. Perhaps it is reasonable to suggest trying 14ppt first considering the difficulty with controlling the pH, etc at 11ppt. In cases where 14ppt is not doing the trick then people could reduce the salinity to 11ppt. Have you tried using Poly Filter (chem. pad) by Poly Bio Marine to help maintain the water quality (i.e. ammonia)?

I have personally kept a couple of fish only aquariums at 15ppt for months without any apparent ill effects. I experimented with this back in the 70ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s and still had most of those fish many years later. We still donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t know how long it is safe to keep boney reef fish at a salinity in this range. However, I know many people that have done it for several months without a problem.

Terry B

 

[leebca]

Terry,

I have used the Poly Filter in my QT when I run hyposalinity, but I find that even though I can control ammonia fairly well, for some reason I have yet to figure out, the nitrites cause a problem. It seems that before the Poly Filter gets hold of ammonia, some has been utilized to produce the nitrites and the Poly Filter isn't good at removing that compound. The bacteria that are supposed to convert the nitrite to nitrate are not doing as well as them that convert the ammonia to nitrite. I have found and now use another product that I believe to be a boon.

I hate to advertise or slam any particular product and I certainly don't get any compensation for this, but. . .Some LFSs in my area put me on to this. They use it successfully. I have bought and tried it myself in QT. It does in fact manage the nitrites and ammonia. The real good thing about this product is that it still works using almost any marine fish medication (including copper) AND it doesn't affect the medication. I have found no interaction. I've used it with antibiotics, Clout, droncit, organophosphates, fungicides (e.g., Nifurpirinol), etc. I have gone from daily water changes in my QT to weekly water changes!

The product is Algone. It comes in its own pouch in two sizes. If you're interested in reading the hype:
http://www.algone.com/directions.htm

I have a concern with a two-step approach Terry. The two-step approach is like using a little antibiotic and then increasing the dosage. The two-step approach (recommending 14 then dropping it to 11 when it doesn't seem to to work) provides the environment for the organism to adjust to the salinity and increase the probability of Natural Selection stepping in to give one or more the opportunity to survive at an even lower salinity.

If the fish handle 11ppt and if the aquarist can control the chemistries, then I would assume you're not opposed to going directly to 11ppt. I think we're at this point albeit not easy for the aquarist. I still think it's the correct approach.

I don't know the mortality rate based upon poor water control. So, I'm shy to adjust a successful program based upon an unknown factor. Now. . .with data showing a significant percent loss from water chemistries, I'd evaluate the loss vs. gain.

 

[blueplanet]

Hi Terry & Lee,
Tks so much for sharing. I have really learnt so much!
Things got into a bad turn for my emperor. I think it has got bacteria infection. Cloudy eyes, rot fins...etc. Arised from secondary bact infection.
I have changed about 50% of water in main display.
I intend to run Myxazin in my main display from waterlife, http://www.waterlife.co.uk/waterlife/aqudistr.htm. Is it any good? Or I should just stick to Furan based mediaction in hospital tank? I dread goin hospital tank for fear of ammonia/nitrite surge which will do more harm then ever. Can I use the algone mentioned by Lee together with Furan medication or Myxazin? I have tried Kordon's Amquel+ before, didn't do any good to me last time...

By the way, Lee, there is no picture of marine velvet in the link you showed me. Any one has picture of marine velvet? My emperor has lost all mucus and is off color now. I suspect it iwas Velvet whcih started it all?

 

[leebca]

Sorry blueplanet. Terry and I sort of hijacked your thread.

Algone will work with the drugs you mentioned, and it will not interfere with the work of the Furnase based medication. This I know.

Waterlife specializes in freshwater products. Their Myxazin is not a cure. It is more like an anti-bacteria chemical than a bactericide. In other words, it only treats the water for the problem, not the fish. I wouldn't use it for the condition your fish is currently in. Just my opinion.

Go for the hospital tank. Use only true antibiotics. Furnase based products are good. My fav is Maracyn Two for Saltwater fish because it goes inside the fish to attack internal infections.

Not too many photos of Marine Velvet. You have to make the call based upon what I previously wrote and the photos of Marine Ich.

You should resign yourself to having a hard time with ammonia and nitrites. Assume you must make at least daily major water changes. 'Bite the bullet' as they say, and help the fish ASAP.

Good luck!
:rollface:

 

[TerryB]

Lee,

Of course I am not opposed to going with a salinity of 11ppt. My concern is suggesting it to hobbyists that may not pay close enough attention to the water quality when it can deteriorate quickly at that salinity. I am just a little conservative about suggesting treatments that may complicate matters. As you said, there may be more problems with ammonia, bacterial infections, etc. Thanks for the suggestion about using Algone and sharing your experience with it. It sounds like something that is worthwhile and has the potential to aid in maintaining the water quality. Algone won't help with the increased difficulty in holding the pH though. Again, I am not opposed to going with 11ppt. I guess we will just have to see if more people have a difficult time at that salinity rather than a couple of points higher. I have used Poly Filter but it sounds like Algone may work better. It would help matters if more people had established quarantine tanks with mature biological filters to.

Terry B

 

[TerryB]

Blueplanet,

The best way to identify amyloodinium is with a microscope. Other than that the behavioral symptoms are better indicators than looking for a dusting or powder- like spots on the fish. By the time you can see them it is usually too late. Look for signals such as violent scratching, and rapid respiration like the fish are panting. Amyloodinium often kills within a few of days of noticing symptoms and the spots or dusting is difficult to see. You should notice a lot of scratching and rapid breathing before the spots are visible. You could try cathing the fish against the glass of the aquarium and then looking down at them with a flashlight and magnifying glass. You can also treat a fish with a freshwater dip and look for a powdery substance at the bottom of the dip. The dip won't cure it, but it can provide some relief and help indentify the problem.

Terry B

 

[TerryB]

Lee,

I am going to order some Algone. Poly Filter will remove medications so Algone could be more helpful for using with sick fish.

Terry B

 

[baobao]

Terry, what type of microscope would you recommend? Any any resources you could refer me to in what to looking for under microscope?

 

[leebca]

Terry,
Let me know what you think of it.

It won't help pH as far I could tell. So, like you wrote, I would still expect that to be a challenge.

 

[danorth]

I have 3 experiences with velvet. The fish have a VERY fine powder almost dust on them. The only way to really see it with the naked eye is if the fish is head to tail and you can see down the side of the fish and look for a film.

Normally if you can see it, it is too late. The only thing that works in my experience is copper and acraflavine. It not treated, you will lose 90%+ of your fish in a matter of a couple of days. That doesn't give you much time. I do have a picture at home of a trigger with it, they are shrunken in and look like hell.

 

[blueplanet]

Hi all, thanks for the generous sharing of knowledge & experience.

Lee & Terry, no hijack at all. On contrary, I appreciate both of you for generously sharing your experience & knowledge.

The emperor angel got better today. I just kept a 20-25% daily water change ritual for the past few days. Removed all live rocks 1st day, Siphoned the bare tank bottom daily ( I don't have substrate--bare bottome tank).

Forgot to mentioned that I alomost lost this emperor few days back. It stopped eating. Color faded, cloudy eyes (thick cloud and could not see). Breathing very fast (>120/min). As such, I immediately hospitalised it for copper treatment. It was too late for hyposalinity. I noticed some fin rots 2nd day into treatment. So I made a decision to bring it back to main display, hope for better control of internal bacteria infection with better water quality in main. I siphoned main tank bottom, changed water daily. At the same time wrote here to ask for help. Lee answered on the furan based med. Intended to set up, but noticed that it started to eat a little bit. Encouraged, fed it medicated food with Kanaplex and Metronidazole. it has shown sign of improvement. I am encourage.
I still intend to rid the root of this parasitic infestion in my main diaplay tank. So still want to go on with Hyposalinity. The tank is bare bottom with only several pieces fo live rocks. I had cleared most live rocks from the tank before moing the emperor back to the tank.
Just wonder if I should make it feel better & stronger first before apply hyposalinity or I can carry on with Hyposalinity as its still combating this bacteria + parasitic infection. What's your view?

 

[blueplanet]

Hi,
Can Hyposalinity kill amyloodinium parasites in any stage of its life cycle?
I suspect I may not have amyloodinium but Ich since velvet kiils much faster as you guys put it.
SInce I intend to do hypo on my tank. Just want to know if I can also eliminate amyloodinium, if any in tank, at the same time..?

 

[leebca]

Hyposalinity doesn't kill off or rid the tank of Marine Velvet (unfortunately). BUT, you can get rid of it in your main tank by removing all fish from it for 6 weeks. Obligate parasites (like Marine Ich and Marine Velvet) die when they have no host to infect.

A hyposalinity treatment on a weakened fish is actually the thing to do. Hyposalinity makes a fish's life easier. In fact, hyposalinity will help the fish heal by allowing it to direct more of its energy into the healing process, then it normally could at normal salinity.

Diagnosis is the most important aspect.

You've provided new information regarding recent problems with the fish. Also, the fish is responding to water changes. This seems now to point to that you are dealing with a bacterial problem, not a parasite, or water quality issues. Bacteria problems come from the fish losing its resistance/immunity, a large population of bacteria in your tank that it normally can't fight off, or stresses that are compromising the fish's resistance to normal bacteria (e.g., nutrition, tank too small, tankmate problems, etc.).

Check to make sure you are feeding the fish properly and providing the proper nutrients:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=785228

While it is recovering, include beta glucan in its diet (see the above reference).

Make sure you're feeding proper foods; make sure your tank is not producing an abnormal amount of bacteria (keep it clean, don't over feed, etc.). Use of antibiotics is just a patch, you have to eliminate the cause(s).