Advice for a recent outbreak of velvet

[adbroom32]

Hello all! It's been around a decade I would guess since I've posted in here. Just had a QQ about a recent bout of velvet I experienced and wanted to get your opinions.

7 weeks ago, I added a naked clownfish to my 15 gallon tank. This tank had already been setup for 6 years and had a wyoming white clown in it. 2 weeks goes by and I noticed white spots on the naked clownfish. I assumed it was ich, since I didn't know what velvet was at the time. 2 days, later the naked clown died. And 3 days later the Wyoming White clown died. I ordered 2 more clowns online, they came in and were dead in 4 days covered in a white powder. This is when I realized it wasn't ich. So after researching, I waited 4 weeks, ordered 2 more clowns and setup a 10 gallon QT tank in which they were in for 2.5 weeks. So the display tank is now 6.5 weeks fishless. At the 2.5 weeks mark in the QT tank (both new clowns have been doing great), they both stop eating and one of the clowns has a swollen and cloudy eye. Just one of the eyes. I tried a freshwater dip for 5 mins with both and a couple of days later, the swollen eye one died. At this point, I didn't have anymore water as I has just done a large water change, so I put the living clown in the display hoping the clean water would help it. After 24 hours, I put it back in the QT tank with new water as I noticed it was breathing heavy and didn't want to further risk another disease in my display tank. I know this time was not velvet, so my main question is:

Does it sound safe for more fish to go in the display in 2 weeks of QT or do you think I need to wait another 6 weeks?

 

[griss]

@leebca @Dr. Reef and @HumbleFish are the best people to answer this.

 

[leebca]

Hello all! It's been around a decade I would guess since I've posted in here. Just had a QQ about a recent bout of velvet I experienced and wanted to get your opinions.

7 weeks ago, I added a naked clownfish to my 15 gallon tank. This tank had already been setup for 6 years and had a wyoming white clown in it. 2 weeks goes by and I noticed white spots on the naked clownfish. I assumed it was ich, since I didn't know what velvet was at the time. 2 days, later the naked clown died. And 3 days later the Wyoming White clown died. I ordered 2 more clowns online, they came in and were dead in 4 days covered in a white powder. This is when I realized it wasn't ich. So after researching, I waited 4 weeks, ordered 2 more clowns and setup a 10 gallon QT tank in which they were in for 2.5 weeks. So the display tank is now 6.5 weeks fishless. At the 2.5 weeks mark in the QT tank (both new clowns have been doing great), they both stop eating and one of the clowns has a swollen and cloudy eye. Just one of the eyes. I tried a freshwater dip for 5 mins with both and a couple of days later, the swollen eye one died. At this point, I didn't have anymore water as I has just done a large water change, so I put the living clown in the display hoping the clean water would help it. After 24 hours, I put it back in the QT tank with new water as I noticed it was breathing heavy and didn't want to further risk another disease in my display tank. I know this time was not velvet, so my main question is:

Does it sound safe for more fish to go in the display in 2 weeks of QT or do you think I need to wait another 6 weeks?

I usually am online only in the mornings, Pacific Time. Just caught this while doing some other online work.

You have at least a couple of concerns. One is the small tank size. It's difficult to maintain water quality stability in a small display tank. Temp fluctuations and other factors which are usually given a pass in larger aquariums have a more significant impact on small aquariums (e.g., shifts in pH).

There are a few problems that can occur when performing a time period of 'going fallow.' Cross contamination and even airborne parasites can be problematic. For this, the QT needs to be in a separate room or at least 15 feet away from the DT. Nets need to be sterilized (soaking in RODI or distilled water and then left to dry out completely). Much depends on the correct diagnosis. This is a short list:
* Black ich (turbellarian worms) - 4 weeks
* Brooklynella aka “Clownfish disease” or “Brook” - 6 weeks
* Flukes (monogenean worms) - 4 weeks
* Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) - 6 weeks IF 27C/80.6F can be continuously maintained
* Uronema marinum - No fallow period, as it does not require a fish host to survive. It is an opportunistic parasite that strikes when a fish’s immune system has been compromised. Uronema mainly affects damsels (especially chromis) and clownfish.
*Velvet (Amyloodinium) - 6 weeks

Without knowing for sure the type of parasite/disease involved, 6 weeks covers most. That is, wait at least a full 6 weeks since the last fish was taken out of the DT.

Difficulty breathing or rapid breathing is hard to evaluate. In general I count the 'breaths' taken in 15 mins and multiply that number by 4. If the number exceeds 140 the fish is having difficulty. Between 120 and 140 it depends on the type and size of fish, water quality, temperature, and water movement to get air/oxygen into the water. For the small Clownfish if it is over140 it would likely be Amyloodinium ocellatum (Marine Velvet).

If going to replace fish and letting the tank go fallow, it's usually best to not get the new fish until the end of the fallow time. I don't know the source of the new Clownfish, but experience has shown that even tank bred fish can be diseased. So either treatment is prophylactic or no less that 3+ weeks of observation is needed in the QT.

I hope the above is helpful.

 

[adbroom32]

Thanks griss for the help!

It is helpful, thank you Leebca. I will add that the QT tank was in another room and I only use RODI with anything I do for sw tanks in general. I'm not too worried about temperature as I have a 200 or 300 watt heater in that tank and have had it since the beginning just over 6 years ago with no issues.I also do 5 gallon water changes every week or 2 (depending on how busy), and I have an ATO to keep salinity stable. I assume you meant 15 seconds in which case, I estimate the breaths x 4 to be around 160ish. I thought flukes at first but did not see anything in the container after the freshwater dip. I'm also not sure how small they would be so it's possible I missed them if they were there. I did notice some behavioral signs... head twitching, swollen eye, redness on the head (easy to see on the frostbite since it's white) loss of apetite, rapid breathing, and lying on the bottom of the QT tank. If it was still marine velvet, that would be highly frustrating. The new clownfish will be from ORA. So my only 2 questions left then are,

1. Can a fish physically show no signs of velvet (meaning no powdery spots) and still die quickly? (I inspected EXTREMELY CLOSELY and saw nothing hahaha)
2. Assuming it was velvet again, would it be able to reinfect the entire display tank even if the fish was in the display for only 24 hours?

 

[griss]

Thanks griss for the help!

To be honest, I didn't really help other than to get someone knowledgeable to help you

 

[leebca]

Thanks griss for the help!

It is helpful, thank you Leebca. I will add that the QT tank was in another room and I only use RODI with anything I do for sw tanks in general. I'm not too worried about temperature as I have a 200 or 300 watt heater in that tank and have had it since the beginning just over 6 years ago with no issues.I also do 5 gallon water changes every week or 2 (depending on how busy), and I have an ATO to keep salinity stable. I assume you meant 15 seconds in which case, I estimate the breaths x 4 to be around 160ish. I thought flukes at first but did not see anything in the container after the freshwater dip. I'm also not sure how small they would be so it's possible I missed them if they were there. I did notice some behavioral signs... head twitching, swollen eye, redness on the head (easy to see on the frostbite since it's white) loss of apetite, rapid breathing, and lying on the bottom of the QT tank. If it was still marine velvet, that would be highly frustrating. The new clownfish will be from ORA. So my only 2 questions left then are,

1. Can a fish physically show no signs of velvet (meaning no powdery spots) and still die quickly? (I inspected EXTREMELY CLOSELY and saw nothing hahaha)
2. Assuming it was velvet again, would it be able to reinfect the entire display tank even if the fish was in the display for only 24 hours?

Yes. I meant seconds. Sorry for the error.

Regarding flukes -- there are different kinds:
After the FW dip, check the dip water carefully. If you see sesame seed shaped things, then the fish had flukes. If you don’t see anything with the unaided eye, there still may flukes/worms in the dip water. Gill Flukes are not visible to the unaided eye. Do you have a microscope or access to one? If so, check the dip water (surface, mid-area, and bottom) under a microscope. You may see blobs/spots. This also confirms the fish has flukes/worms. If you won’t have a microscope or access to one, no problem. Just assume the fish has gill flukes. The dip is a temporary relief for the fish. If worms are found or suspected, then treatment with Praziquantel is needed.

Another type of fluke infects inside the eye of the fish. A very close inspection shows small whitish spots inside the eye.

The symptoms you have described fit the presence of gill flukes.

1. Amyloodinium ocellatum (Marine Velvet) can be difficult (sometimes) to diagnose. They usually first start in the gills, hidden from visual observation. In the more-or-less next phase, the body has a sheen to it (hence the name "velvet"). The next phase are tiny white dots visible.

2. Parasites can act fast. They can come into a DT on a droplet of water, or a fish, or an invertebrate in tank water with the parasite. It only takes a second.

 

[adbroom32]

No worries Leebca! I knew what you meant haha. Let me go back to the freshwater dip... I ASSUMED I didn't see anything concrete. There were a few tiny white looking bugs, but they weren't circular shaped like I normally see in Google Images so I figured they were just the little bugs that crawl around the rocks (forgot the names of them), although I guess they were typically smaller than them.

I unfortunately do not have a microscope, although it would be really interesting to see everything under one.

Another physical trait I noticed that I forgot to mention was the frostbite clown had something on its cheek that almost looked like a piece of its cheek was peeling off. It was a white/cream color. Very weird looking for sure. I treated with General Cure but literally only an hour or two before the frostbite died.

I think my conclusion was that it was some type/s of fluke. Not sure how they would get into a QT tank except through the fish provider. I felt like the place I ordered from was pretty trustworthy though. Regardless, I'm going to QT for 4 more weeks and try reintroducing clownfish again. A tank is pretty boring without any fish