Hyposalinity In A New Large Tank Questions

[nuxx]

Hey guys I have a quick question.

Looks like Ich slipped into my tank. My Yellow Belly Blue Tang and Black Tang are showing spots.

I did 8 weeks of QT each time, but didn't treat with hypo or copper because no spots were seen.

2 months after my fish have been in the DT, some spots popped up.

Some of my fish are decent sized, so catching and moving everything to QT tanks seems like it will be more stressful on the fish.

My tank has the following:
Dry Rock
Dead Sand
NO Coral

The tank is 5-6 months old, so there isn't too much life in the sand or on the rock.

I have two cleaner shrimp and a handful of snails.

Fish are as follows:
Black Tang, Purple Tang, Yellow Tang, Chevron Tang, Tomini Tang, Yellow Bellied Blue Tang, Black Ice Clown and 3 Pajama Cardinals.

Would doing hyposalinity in my display tank be a good way to get the Ich killed off?

What is the exact procedure I should do and for how long?

Is my tank a good candidate, or will it be risky?

Anything I should keep on hand while doing this as well. What should I monitor the most during this besides salinity? Will need to pick up a refractometer instead of my hydrometer.

I've guessing the snails will die and the shrimp as well. Any tricks on catching the shrimp that live in the rocks?

Thanks

 

[nuxx]

Hey guys,

I think I'm going to go this route.

A few quick questions...

- Any suggestions on a good refractometer?

- After the last spots are seen, how long should the treatment go? 4-6 weeks?

- Salinity should be keep at 1.009 correct?

- Anything I should keep on hand? Prime, buffer, ammonia alert, etc... what's the best way to raise PH? Mine hovers around 8.1.

- Would moving my cleaners over to a tank that has been fishless for 3 months and adding a new batch of snails to that tank for 8-12 weeks be good to make sure no ich gets through?

- Can I leave my macro (chaeto) in during hypo? Or should I move it to the fishless tank?

- Keeping 1.009 is very important. I have around 650 gallons of total water volume. Salinity takes an eternity to change. With my ATO (keeping salinity close) and Apex (Monitoring PH), should this be a pretty simple process?

- How quickly should I bring down the salinity? How much RODI fresh water do you think it'll take to lower from 1.025 to 1.009 in a 650 gallon system?

 

[Spar]

Hey guys,

I think I'm going to go this route.

A few quick questions...

- Any suggestions on a good refractometer? hard to go wrong with these really. just don't skimp and buy from a reputable store. anywhere between $50-$100 is reasonable to expect

- After the last spots are seen, how long should the treatment go? 4-6 weeks? yes 4-6 weeks preferred, then gradually increase the salinity

- Salinity should be keep at 1.009 correct? correct, however make sure to consider that refractometers will read slightly low at that level IF you calibrate to 35ppt solution (preferred); I estimate that mine is off by somewhere between .001-.002, so aim for 1.008 knowing that it actually will be around 1.009

- Anything I should keep on hand? Prime, buffer, ammonia alert, etc... what's the best way to raise PH? Mine hovers around 8.1. don't worry about pH, not an issue. Just maintain KH at around 4-6 dKH; will need bakind soda or soda ash for this. Have Prime and Ammonia alerts for sure.

- Would moving my cleaners over to a tank that has been fishless for 3 months and adding a new batch of snails to that tank for 8-12 weeks be good to make sure no ich gets through? yes, best and only way to be 100% confident; 12 weeks preferred.

- Can I leave my macro (chaeto) in during hypo? Or should I move it to the fishless tank? i will defer to someone else, but i think moving it is preferred

- Keeping 1.009 is very important. I have around 650 gallons of total water volume. Salinity takes an eternity to change. With my ATO (keeping salinity close) and Apex (Monitoring PH), should this be a pretty simple process? same process I had when I did Hypo, and I never had any variance, so you will be good. still worth keeping an eye out for changes though.

- How quickly should I bring down the salinity? How much RODI fresh water do you think it'll take to lower from 1.025 to 1.009 in a 650 gallon system?
down can go quickly, but it is hard to do piece-mealed -- i will post a link to a post where someone did this recently.. reach out to the person for their experience (remind me if I forget... running out to a meeting right now...)

 

[nuxx]

Thanks Cliff, I think you hit most of my points

Feel bad for the fish, mostly early signs and have to go out of town for a week.

My mother in law is watching the house, dogs and fish. So she'll be feeding garlic / selcon soaked nori and foods while we're gone.

Hope they can wait a week until I start the hypo

 

[Spar]

Thanks Cliff, I think you hit most of my points

Feel bad for the fish, mostly early signs and have to go out of town for a week.

My mother in law is watching the house, dogs and fish. So she'll be feeding garlic / selcon soaked nori and foods while we're gone.

Hope they can wait a week until I start the hypo

Hopefully. When it hits it hits hard, but you are doing the right thing of at least having plans to eradicate ready.

Here is the post I was referring to: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2418284

My recommendation in that post was to house the fish separately for a couple days in a much small tank (75g+ in your instance), gradually lower salinity for the fish in there. In the mean time, lower the salinity in the 650g volume in one swoop. When salinity is matched you can move the fish over to the 650g. Will save you thousands of gallons of water.

 

[Spar]

My mother in law is watching the house, dogs and fish.

I'd have dead dogs and dead fish if I went that route :bum: probably even my house would go missing!

 

[nuxx]

Hopefully. When it hits it hits hard, but you are doing the right thing of at least having plans to eradicate ready.

Here is the post I was referring to: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2418284

My recommendation in that post was to house the fish separately for a couple days in a much small tank (75g+ in your instance), gradually lower salinity for the fish in there. In the mean time, lower the salinity in the 650g volume in one swoop. When salinity is matched you can move the fish over to the 650g. Will save you thousands of gallons of water.

Guess I should get some new DI media >:0

Will do about 50 gallons a day. Don't want to catch the fish and put them in smaller tanks. Just for stress reasons. I think the Purple and Black Tangs would wipe each other out in one of my smaller tanks lol

How strong should I make the water to bring salinity back up?

I guess I could take out 50 gallons mix in more salt for a day, add it back in. Then take another 50 gallons out, mix in more salt for a day and add back in. That way I wouldn't be blowing through RODI to bring the salinity back up.

I'd have dead dogs and dead fish if I went that route :bum: probably even my house would go missing!

HAHAH :beer:

Edit: Just bought more DI

 

[Spar]

i just did the math, and it actually isn't as bad as I thought. to bring down from 1.025 to 1.009 in 650g's, you could either do it all at once with 416 gallons of RO/DI, or you can do it over 13 total 50 gallon water changes for a total of 650 gallons of RO/DI.

If you want to keep it approximately consistent with .0015 to .0020 decreases per water change, do your first 4 water changes with 50 gallons each, and then increase to 75 gallons for 4 times, then do a final 125 gallon water change. Only decreases your total usage by 25 gallons of RO/DI, but gets you there a little quicker and with more consistent salinity decreases per water change.

going up in salinity, i always just added salt a few cups at a time directly to the sump and let it mix and spread in there. not sure if this is a no-no or not, but I never had any issues... obviously the recommended approach is to let evaporation do the work for you or through water changes with properly mixed new salt water. If you are in no hurry, just top off evaporation with salt water for a while. can even make that a much stronger salinity as you are suggesting. not sure how high you can get salt to mix at, but worth a test IMO.

 

[nuxx]

i just did the math, and it actually isn't as bad as I thought. to bring down from 1.025 to 1.009 in 650g's, you could either do it all at once with 416 gallons of RO/DI, or you can do it over 13 total 50 gallon water changes for a total of 650 gallons of RO/DI.

If you want to keep it approximately consistent with .0015 to .0020 decreases per water change, do your first 4 water changes with 50 gallons each, and then increase to 75 gallons for 4 times, then do a final 125 gallon water change. Only decreases your total usage by 25 gallons of RO/DI, but gets you there a little quicker and with more consistent salinity decreases per water change.

going up in salinity, i always just added salt a few cups at a time directly to the sump and let it mix and spread in there. not sure if this is a no-no or not, but I never had any issues... obviously the recommended approach is to let evaporation do the work for you or through water changes with properly mixed new salt water. If you are in no hurry, just top off evaporation with salt water for a while. can even make that a much stronger salinity as you are suggesting. not sure how high you can get salt to mix at, but worth a test IMO.

Yeah that's not too bad. I could do 100 a day.

My RO unit will do that

Unless anybody can say why not to add some cups directly to the sump... I can't see a reason not to do that?!?!?

 

[Spar]

Yeah that's not too bad. I could do 100 a day.

My RO unit will do that

Unless anybody can say why not to add some cups directly to the sump... I can't see a reason not to do that?!?!?

adding new salt will cause an initial spike in pH. it can be pretty high. only thing i noticed when I did hypo increases like that.

if you do 100g water changes from the beginning, it would take 6 water changes and you would decrease salinity each time, in order, by: .0038, .0033, .0028, .0023, .0020, and finally by .0017 (you would want to make the last water change 110 gallons to get closer to 1.009 though... otherwise you are left with 1.0092). yes, i am a geek and made a spreadsheet to show me this :reading:

 

[nuxx]

adding new salt will cause an initial spike in pH. it can be pretty high. only thing i noticed when I did hypo increases like that.

if you do 100g water changes from the beginning, it would take 6 water changes and you would decrease salinity each time, in order, by: .0038, .0033, .0028, .0023, .0020, and finally by .0017 (you would want to make the last water change 110 gallons to get closer to 1.009 though... otherwise you are left with 1.0092). yes, i am a geek and made a spreadsheet to show me this :reading:

Haha that might just be a better idea.

Made sure I got some new test kits as well

What QT regiment would you suggest for new additions from now on?

I'm thinking 1 week for tank life adjustments, 2-3 weeks of copper and 4 weeks of monitoring and prazipro treatment. What's the best way to maintain filtration, keep ammonia down, etc... when doing QT like that. I've always just treated with Prazipro 3 times and had some live rock in the QT tank before with some filter pad soaked in the DT for a while.

Obviously this won't work with copper and this old QT procedure did not work... hence the ich.

 

[Spar]

the best QT method, where wanting to eradicate Ich, is Tank Transfer Method (TTM). That is what I switched to. I did Hypo for years, then did Copper for a few months, but have been doing TTM for the last year. It takes a little extra effort, but doesn't rely on chemicals or cause stress from quick (relatively anyway) changes in salinity levels. And you only need a 10g or 20g tank for most fish.

If you do copper, make sure to do .5ppm for 4 weeks. PraziPro is always good to do and is easy on the fish. And don't under any circumstance use an ammonia detox chemical such as Prime or AmQuel; fish will die.

IME, water changes are the #1 easiest way to keep down ammonia in QT's. But you can couple that with a seeded sponge filter that has been in your DT for several weeks -- pretty much is an instant cycle that way.

 

[nuxx]

the best QT method, where wanting to eradicate Ich, is Tank Transfer Method (TTM). That is what I switched to. I did Hypo for years, then did Copper for a few months, but have been doing TTM for the last year. It takes a little extra effort, but doesn't rely on chemicals or cause stress from quick (relatively anyway) changes in salinity levels. And you only need a 10g or 20g tank for most fish.

If you do copper, make sure to do .5ppm for 4 weeks. PraziPro is always good to do and is easy on the fish. And don't under any circumstance use an ammonia detox chemical such as Prime or AmQuel; fish will die.

IME, water changes are the #1 easiest way to keep down ammonia in QT's. But you can couple that with a seeded sponge filter that has been in your DT for several weeks -- pretty much is an instant cycle that way.

What's the tank transfer method you use?

I haven't really read much into it.

Do you think go to a normal longer term style QT after you've done tank transfer to treat of things like flukes with something similar to Prazipro and for observation before moving to the DT?

 

[Spar]

Here are a couple good posts:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388428
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1996525

Basically the point is to play the ich life cycle against itself. We know that at some point in the first 4-9 days of putting a fish in a tank that all the parasites will have jumped off the fish and formed cysts (called Tomites) on a hard structure in the tank, such as the glass, heaters, airstones, PVC hiding places, etc. These cysts take at least 72 hours to hatch and become infectious parasites again.

So, if you completely transfer (meaning new tank, new equipment, etc) a fish from one tank to another every 72 hours (3 days), you will leave behind these cysts. You do this 4 times @ 3-day increments, or 6 times @ 2-day increments, totaling 12 days. Given what we know about the life cycle, Ich will be gone permanently.

Cleaning the tank and letting it air dry will kill the cysts. And will be ready to house the fish the next round.

For post-TTM, I just keep them in the same setup as I do TTM with, but put in a seeded sponge filter. They don't need anything glamorous. you want to have the entire QT period (includes TTM's 12 days) be a minimum of 4 weeks. More is preferred. But, 4 weeks will ensure you don't have something more serious like velvet or brook.

For Prazi, you can couple Prazi with TTM (do concurrently), but I tend to wait until afterwards when the observation 2-3 weeks period begins.

 

[nuxx]

Here are a couple good posts:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388428
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1996525

Basically the point is to play the ich life cycle against itself. We know that at some point in the first 4-9 days of putting a fish in a tank that all the parasites will have jumped off the fish and formed cysts (called Tomites) on a hard structure in the tank, such as the glass, heaters, airstones, PVC hiding places, etc. These cysts take at least 72 hours to hatch and become infectious parasites again.

So, if you completely transfer (meaning new tank, new equipment, etc) a fish from one tank to another every 72 hours (3 days), you will leave behind these cysts. You do this 4 times @ 3-day increments, or 6 times @ 2-day increments, totaling 12 days. Given what we know about the life cycle, Ich will be gone permanently.

Cleaning the tank and letting it air dry will kill the cysts. And will be ready to house the fish the next round.

For post-TTM, I just keep them in the same setup as I do TTM with, but put in a seeded sponge filter. They don't need anything glamorous. you want to have the entire QT period (includes TTM's 12 days) be a minimum of 4 weeks. More is preferred. But, 4 weeks will ensure you don't have something more serious like velvet or brook.

For Prazi, you can couple Prazi with TTM (do concurrently), but I tend to wait until afterwards when the observation 2-3 weeks period begins.

Seems very easy

I have 4 complete QT setups for when I had all the tangs going through QT

Guess ammonia isn't an issue with 2-3 day holding times.

 

[Spar]

Seems very easy

I have 4 complete QT setups for when I had all the tangs going through QT

Guess ammonia isn't an issue with 2-3 day holding times.

correct on the ammonia part. but if you do have a borderline over population in QT, you can always add Prime on the 3rd day of each transfer.

i just started TTM on a few tangs and went out and bought 2 29g tanks for it. much harder as the tanks get heavier. with 10g tanks it is a breeze.

 

[nuxx]

correct on the ammonia part. but if you do have a borderline over population in QT, you can always add Prime on the 3rd day of each transfer.

i just started TTM on a few tangs and went out and bought 2 29g tanks for it. much harder as the tanks get heavier. with 10g tanks it is a breeze.

Yeah might just get another 20 gallon long.

Then use a 40 breeder for the rest of the time

Also with tank transfer, can you mix 50 gallons of salt water and use it when you need it.

Or for ammonia sake, do you need to have it freshly mixed.

 

[nuxx]

Also should I be fine with a 2" sandbed? It was dead sand, now has a little color in it.

Shouldn't cause too much of an ammonia spike?

 

[Spar]

I mix 150g's of salt water at a time and use it over a month or so of time. Been going well for 4 years so my best guess is that it is fine. I recall reading that it depends on if your salt mix has organics in it. Not sure how to know though. I use CoralLife salt.

Sand bed is fine, but may experience some die off. With all your large water changes should be fine.