Hyposalinity Treatment in QT for 2 Swallowtail Angels and Others

[ReefGirlSara]

Here is a link to what I've already posted in another forum...
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1402055

I have a 37 or 38 Gallon Eclipse tank with a Koralia 1 in there for flow. There's about 30 lbs of live sand and 30 lbs of live rock in there too.

Last Thursday I picked up my two small swallowtail angels. One had ick, and one took a flight with a crash landing as it was being bagged up. The both looked pretty rough the first couple of days. They were in 1.016 salinity (SG), and I am very slowly lowering it to 1.009 for a 5 week hyposalinity treatment.

Was it 5 or 6 weeks? Now I can't remember.

Anyway, I was thinking maybe I should dose some sort antibiotic or something since the one that was healthy now has some scratches from rolling and flopping around on the concrete floor.

The one that has ick also has a round/oval place on his right side. I have tried to get a pic, but no luck so far. The place looks like a bruise and is a little bit swollen, not much. It seems to be staying the same.

My Main question for the moment is - if I want to add other fish, how do I add them? My display tank has been fishless for months, and is definitely ich free, so I won't be skipping QT for any new fish. Do I need to wait for the full hypo treatment and then put the swallowtails in the DT and return the QT to a salinity of 1.021 or so and then add new fish to the QT? I'd like to add one or two small fish to the QT now and add them all to the DT at the same time. I mainly want to do this so the swallowtails don't bully any new comers.

The QT is currently at 1.014 SG.

 

[TerryB]

Swallowtail angels are difficult to keep so I assume that you have a few years of experience keeping “easier” marine fish. Angels in general should be left to the well experienced.
You can take the salinity down to 14ppt immediately provided you know the difference between salinity and Specific Gravity, check the pH daily and buffer as needed and are using a refractometer rather than an inaccurate plastic float-arm type hydrometer to measure the salinity.

Considering the injury, I would use StressGuard or some other polymer to serve as a temporary mucus layer. Maracyn-Two (not Maracyn) would be a good choice of antibiotic (used at the double dose suggested for the first day each and every day) for at least a week. It would be great if you replaced some of the water each day before adding the next dose. Use well aged and aerated saltwater of the same temperature, salinity and pH.
When you finish treating for ich then raise the salinity a couple of points a day until it matches your DT. Do not quarantine more than one fish at a time in a quarantine tank unless they are a mated pair. To quarantine means to isolate. Do not add new fish to the quarantine until the others are moved out. Do not shortcut any treatment.

Terry B

 

[ReefGirlSara]

Thank you for the reply, that was a lot of good information.

I am using a Pinpoint Salinity Monitor, freshly calibrated. I also have a glass refractometer and a swing arm that I use just every now and then to make sure everything is in agreement. In my previous thread someone posted this:

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12654471#post12654471 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Playa-1
It looks like 21.5
Check out this chart.
http://www.americanmarineusa.com/salinityconversion.html

and according to that chart I should keep my salinity monitor in between about 22 and 23, which is about 14ppt or 1.009ish SG.

I will definitely not be adding any new fish to the quarantine. The hypo treatment starts today. Should I wait 5 or 6 weeks?

Do hermits and snails do ok in such low salinity?

 

[ReefGirlSara]

What should I keep the pH at? 8.2? That's where it is now.

 

[TerryB]

It is best to go 6 weeks with hypo to be safe. 30 days usually works well. Yes, a salinity of 14ppt is what you should use. A pH of 8.2 will be fine, just don't let the pH or the salinity bounce around. They need to be constant.

If you can't get Maracyn-Two (suggested because it is the easiest on the bio-filter) then you could use some Kanamycin or a nitrofuran such as Nitrofurazone. Each antibiotic has a different dose and number of applications.

Terry B

 

[ReefGirlSara]

Ok, so on July 17th I will start to bring their salinity back up. At least I have a countdown.

I am not an expert with keeping marine fish, so I certainly do appreciate all the help I can get. I have had my first tank - the 54G corner tank since March of 2006. I have definitely made my share of mistakes, but since I joined reefcentral I (generally) don't runsh into anything, period. The advice and information I have gotten from this site has helped me and my tanks quite a bit.

Anyway, I wanted to ask what type of filtration should I be running? This eclipse tank has the standard built in filtration/lighting hood thing. Basically like this: http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2752382
When I got it, there was a small strip of filter pad in between where the water comes in and the bio-wheel. It was clogged up and causing the back of the tank to overflow. I just removed it. Right now the only thing is the Bio-wheel filter. I am doing daily one gallon (+/-) water changes. Do you think this is enough/too much? Should I replace the filter pad?

Thank you!

 

[ReefGirlSara]

Oh, and as an update - last night I could just barely see some very tiny dots on a couple fins. The visible ick is almost completely gone. Right now the only thing you can really see that looks bad is the grayish brownish spot on the right side of one of them. It's about the size of a pecil eraser, and pretty much right in the middle of the fish. It mainly looks like a bruise, but it is a little swollen there.

Do you have any guesses as to what it might be? I will try to get a good picture.

 

[TerryB]

It is probably and injury, maybe from netting (I don't catch fish in nets). It is common for fish with external parasites to get a secondary bacterial infection in the wounds caused by the parasites. These infections often clear once the parasite is under control, especially with water changes and good water quality. Keep an eye on the lesion and be prepared with a good antibiotic if it starts to change or look worse.
Try to get some Beta glucan (immune stimulant) from a good health food store and add a small amount to the food each day for a week.

Terry B

 

[ReefGirlSara]

Well, I came home tonight and one of them looks really bad. I have not been able to get the Maracyn-2 or the Kanamycin or Nitrofurazone, I have the Maracyn-2 on order for Tuesday though.

One of the 2 angels - the one that jumped out at the LFS and rolled around on the concrete - has something almost completely covering his tail. It looks sort of sponge-like, and it is all white, it looks a little like mold or something. (maybe fungus?) He seems to be swimming funny, like he is losing his balance, and he is slower too. His fins have tiny spots that look like ich - but the other fish that did have ich now has no sign of it at all and looks almost perfect.

My question is - I have some Formalin 3 right now - should I dose the tank with it?

I am worried he will not make it another day, since yesterday his tail just looked a little weird, and now it is very very noticeably covered with something.

Thank you!

 

[TerryB]

I would not use the formalin. It will stress and already badly weakened fish and it won't cure a bacterial infection. I think what is a bacterial or possibly a fungal infection is what is life threatening right now. Can you find some Furanase? What about Neomycin?

Terry B

 

[ReefGirlSara]

not tonight - and I am getting really worried about him. He is breathing very fast and hard, and not swimming around a whole lot. What I have on hand is Formalin 3, Malachite Green, and Kick Ich. They had Maracyn 2 for Freshwater at Petsmart, but since I had the saltwater version already on order i did not get it. I did not know if it would or not. I think Petsmart has something with neomycin in the name, maybe something like ethryneomycin, not sure on the spelling though. Should I get that tomorrow?

 

[ReefGirlSara]

I just found something in my cabinet called Pimafix made by API. It says it is Antifungal Fish Remedy. The active ingredient is Pimenta racemosa. Do you know anything about this product? It says it is all natural, whatever that means.

Thank for all your help!

 

[TerryB]

If You can't get furanase then the only real difference between Maracyn-Two (minocycline) for freshwater and M2 for saltwater are the added vitamins. M2 would not be my first choice for you right now, but it is better than what you have on hand. With M2 use the double dose suggested on the package for the first day EACH and EVERY day for at least a week. I assume that you have aleady reduced the salinity. It may be too late, but I would try anyway. Do not stress the fish by catching it. Look for Furanase if you can get in immediately. Don't bother with ethryneomycin. It is not neomycin. Check the expiration dates on any meds.

Terry B

 

[ReefGirlSara]

Yes, I have reduced the salinity to 14 ppt or 1.009 SG. The pH has been kept between 8.1-8.2. The temp is a constant 80 degrees. I did a larger water change tonight of about 9 Gallons (about 25%). The Nitrates did get up to about 15 or so, but the ammonia has always been at zero.

He looks the same, but seems really weak and now he seems to be floating around a little. The other fish being in there is not helping - he keeps going over to check him out and I think it scares the other one, he starts breathing a lot harder and faster. I don't know what to do right now - I really don't think he'll make it through the night. He did eat really well. I don't know...

It really makes it that much worse that he was originally the healthy one, but his time on the concrete did a lot of damage. Two days ago he looked fine, and the other one was just losing all the rest of the ich spots. No the one that had ich looks great, and this one might not make it...

I looked up Furanase and Petsmart and Petco don't carry it. I'll call all my LFS's tomorrow, but it's doubtful. I will get the M2 for freshwater and do the double dose if that's all I can get, if he's still alive.

Thank you so much!

 

[TerryB]

You are welcome. I like to see people make every effort to save sick fish.

Terry B

 

[ReefGirlSara]

I found the Maracyn-2 for Saltwater and put in 4 packets today. (It says to dose 1 packet for 10 gallons, and the tank is 37 gallons.) The tank water is completely yellow. Should I continue to dose 4 whole packets everyday for 4 more days? How much water should I change out daily if any?

At the end of the treatment should I put a carbon filter back in?

Oh, I also bought some NovAqua - which I was told is like Stress Guard, should I dose this along with the Maracyn 2? Should I dose as directed - 5ml for 10 gallons?

Thanks again!

 

[TerryB]

Continue using the double dose (as suggested on the package for the first day) every day for at least 7 days. it would be a good idea to make a large water change each day before adding the next dose. Use well aged and aerated saltwater, not water that was just freshly mixed. I am not sure if NovAqua has a polymer in it like StressGuard, but it may help. Put the carbon in and make a water change after the treatment is finished.

How much experience do you have with delicate fish such as angels, butterflys and tangs?

Terry B

 

[ReefGirlSara]

Forgot to mention that the 1 packet for 10 gallons is the double dose they say to use for the first day. I wanted to just make sure this is the dose you meant that I should use for each of the 5 days of treatment.

I'll have to buy another box for the last day (the box is 16 packets and is $16.99) - I will have spent more on the medication than on the fish. lol.

 

[TerryB]

Yep, double dose each day in saltwater. Antibiotics in the Tetracycline family (i.e. minocycline) are inactivated by saltwater so a stronger dose is needed.

I hope it all turns out well and the fish survives. Most fish in that bad of condition don't stand a chance because they don't get the right care. Your fish still has a hard fight ahead if it is going to make it. Are you adding some vitamins like Zoe to the water?

Terry B

 

[ReefGirlSara]

Is zoe better than Selcon? I don't really know what the difference is. I soak the foad in Garlic Guard and Selcon daily. Should I dose the NovAqua? It's supposed to be like stress guard - for their slime coat.