Hyposalinity Treatment in QT for 2 Swallowtail Angels and Others

[TerryB]

Zoe is vitamins and Selcon is omega 3 fatty acids. The fish need both. You could use some NovAqua, but I would not now. It works as a temporary mucus barrier for wounds, but the fish may already have recovered its mucus barrier by now. Did you look for some Beta glucan?

Terry B

 

[ReefGirlSara]

Here are a couple of pictures. She looks MUCH worse now, but has never stopped eating and seems to be swimming better and stronger. She is showing no visible signs of improvement on her body though. I don't know what to do. Today was the 4th double dose of the Maracyn-2. I am adding vitamins and garlic to the food daily.

The tank looks dirty, but it's mostly on the outside. We set it up in a big hurry and I haven't had time to clean it up much. The water is VERY yellow from the Maracyn-2.

 

[ReefGirlSara]

She has a big clump of whatever this is on her tail, and some good size spots on all fins and now on her face near her eyes and along the top of her body. She looks really really bad in person, the pics don't show everything.

 

[ReefGirlSara]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12708126#post12708126 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TerryB
Continue using the double dose (as suggested on the package for the first day) every day for at least 7 days. it would be a good idea to make a large water change each day before adding the next dose. Use well aged and aerated saltwater, not water that was just freshly mixed. I am not sure if NovAqua has a polymer in it like StressGuard, but it may help. Put the carbon in and make a water change after the treatment is finished.

How much experience do you have with delicate fish such as angels, butterflys and tangs?

Terry B

I missed this post before...
I do not have a lot of experience. I have just had the one yellow tang that came with my first tank a little over 2 years ago. When you say well aged saltwater, do you mean just like 8 hours or more? I usually make it up the night before and use it in about 24 hours or so (for normal water changes).

 

[TerryB]

Please describe these spots in detail. Do they look like small cauliflower and are they irregular in size and shape? The facts that she is eating and seems to be stronger are good signs. Some infections can look worse before they get better. Have you looked for some Beta glucan?

Saltwater should be mixed and aerated for 24 hours or more before it is used to allow time for the salts to dissolve and the water to chemically stabilize. Freshly mixed saltwater is highly irritating to delicate gill tissues.

I need more details about all the spots and/or lesions on the fish. Are all of them white clumpy spots like on the tail, but smaller? Do any of the spots look like grains of salt on the fish (they would not be odd shaped)? Is the fish scratching on objects in the tank? Do some of the spots just look like areas that are discolored or have lost the natural coloration? What is the salinity at (not SG)? Is the fish breathing at a normal rate?

You may find that making the water changes (say 30%) before adding the next dose of medication helps the fish. Antibiotics take time to work. The first thing to look for is if the fish is getting stronger or weaker. Later you can look for signs of healing. If the fish was getting weaker than I would suggest changing medication right away.

I am beginning to suspect lymphocystis, but it is not uncommon for a weakened fish to be fighting more than one pathogen at a time. This could include parasites, bacterial infection and viral infection such as lymphocystis. When I get some detailed answers from you I will reevaluate the situation and let you know my opinion about any possible changes in treatment.

Terry B

 

[ReefGirlSara]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12729890#post12729890 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TerryB
Please describe these spots in detail. Do they look like small cauliflower and are they irregular in size and shape?

-They are irregular in size and shape, but I would not say they look like cauliflower with indivual sections. The big place on the tail looks a lot like a big white blob, sort of like a foam, like when you pour peroxide on an open sore. It does not have bubbles or any individual pieces that I can see - it is just one solid blob, maybe more like meringue that you make from whipping egg whites.

The facts that she is eating and seems to be stronger are good signs. Some infections can look worse before they get better. Have you looked for some Beta glucan?

-I will call the health food store right now.

Saltwater should be mixed and aerated for 24 hours or more before it is used to allow time for the salts to dissolve and the water to chemically stabilize. Freshly mixed saltwater is highly irritating to delicate gill tissues.

-I always wait at least 10 hours, with a maxijet 1200 in the tote, but I will make sure to use more aged saltwater from now on.

I need more details about all the spots and/or lesions on the fish.

-I'd say they are more like spots, less like lesions.

Are all of them white clumpy spots like on the tail, but smaller?

-Yes, exactly.

Do any of the spots look like grains of salt on the fish (they would not be odd shaped)?

-No, not that I can see.

Is the fish scratching on objects in the tank?

-No, I have not seen it do this once.

Do some of the spots just look like areas that are discolored or have lost the natural coloration?

-No. There is some brownish discoloration along the very top of its body, but I was thinking it just looked like signs of stress.

What is the salinity at (not SG)?

-22.5 mS on my pinpoint monitor.

Is the fish breathing at a normal rate?

Slightly elevated rate, but not extremely rapid. Looks like it is just exherting itself from trying to swim. It swims sort of like the white clumps weight it down, and it has a hard time swimming in a graceful, fluid like motion. It swims like it is taking a lot of effort to do so, and it is kind of a choppy unbalanced motion.

You may find that making the water changes (say 30%) before adding the next dose of medication helps the fish. Antibiotics take time to work. The first thing to look for is if the fish is getting stronger or weaker. Later you can look for signs of healing. If the fish was getting weaker than I would suggest changing medication right away.

-Seems to be a great deal stronger than Sunday - I thought it was a goner Sunday night.

I am beginning to suspect lymphocystis, but it is not uncommon for a weakened fish to be fighting more than one pathogen at a time. This could include parasites, bacterial infection and viral infection such as lymphocystis. When I get some detailed answers from you I will reevaluate the situation and let you know my opinion about any possible changes in treatment.

Terry B

 

[ReefGirlSara]

I forgot to mention that the large white clumps on the tail started out looking like a finger print, and one side of the tail was pushed in and the other side bulging out very noticeably, almost like a fingerprint. I was thinking when the fish jumped out of the net at the fish store and landed on the concrete, the lady tried to pick it up first by the tail, pinched between a finger and her thumb. It wiggled out and fell back to the concrete, from only a couple inches off the ground. I don't know if this info helps.

It started out not having any marks anywhere, then the tail bubbled out like that, and the bubble turned very white on the side that was bulging out, then it got very clumpy and fuzzy looking like white mold, then it wrapped around the whole tail and about that time the white spots/small clumps started to show up in the fins, then the face by the eyes...

 

[ReefGirlSara]

Is there anything you might suggest that would be similar to beta glucan, but less expensive? The health food store across town has it but it is $17, I have already spent over $50 in my effort to save this $35 fish...and my boyfriend thinks I am totally crazy. I can't stand to see it suffer, and would do anything I can to help it, but money is very tight - it took a long time for me to be ok with even buying these 2 fish for $35 each, so I have to be realistic and try to not spend any more money, or at least, not a lot more. Being a reefer on a budget is rough.

 

[TerryB]

It is impossible to make a definite diagnosis over the internet, but that doesn’t mean that you don’t have a good chance of saving the fish. The more information that you give me, the better chance I have of helping.

Since we already started an antibiotic and the fish is getting stronger I would continue the antibiotic for at least a total of 7 days. However, I think you are seeing more than one pathogen at work. The fish may not have lymphocystis, but it still could be a viral infection (possibly something similar to fish pox). The good news is that some viral infections are not life threatening, but they may not look pretty.

There really aren’t any good direct treatments for viral infections. You just have to strengthen the fish by helping to improve immune function. This can be accomplished by removing any source of stress, providing excellent water quality, giving the fish the best possible diet for its particular species and using supplements such as vitamins, Selcon and Beta glucan. Beta glucan does directly enhance immune function.

I believe that lowering the salinity reduces the amount of energy consumed in osmoregulation. That energy is then available for immune function and healing. Keep a close eye on the pH when using hyposalinity. Keeping the fish in hyposalinity is also an effective treatment for ich, but you haven’t told us anything that would lead me to believe that your fish has ich.

Fungal infections are rare in saltwater fish, but most fish haven’t been dropped on the cement either. Viral and fungal infections usually get a foothold in a compromise to the mucus/scale/skin barrier so a fungal infection is a possibility. Viral and fungal lesions can increase in size rapidly, so this is another indicator that one of these is responsible.

You should monitor the fish closely for any changes as you continue the antibiotic a total of 7 days (I think that leaves you two more days to go). Then you should make a large water change and remove all the medication with some carbon for at least 12 hours. Then I would use some Furanase, because it does have some action against fungus. The Beta glucan is probably more important to the recovery of this fish than any medication that you will give it. I use the “NOW” brand because it is well priced and contains 100mg per capsule.

The slightly elevated respiration rate is probably caused by several factors. The respiration rate usually increases when a fish is not feeling well. All that antibiotic in the water may be a factor (since you didn’t make a water change before adding the next dose and your staring at the fish probably makes it uncomfortable.

This is not going to be finished quickly if the fish survives. It is going to take a lot of effort and more time (and probably money). This is going to be a “step-by-step” process. I have given my time to help you, because I was under the impression that you are a conscientious and caring aquarist that would give 100% to provide the best for their stock. I keep all of my pets (wet or otherwise) alive and healthy by any means possible without considering the replacement value. I can’t place a value on life. Once I take responsibility for the life of an animal I am going to do everything to keep it alive.

Terry B

 

[ReefGirlSara]

Well, all I can say is that I greatly appreciate all of your time and your help. I feel exactly the same as you do about wanting to do everything in my power to help my pets. However, as a recent college graduate and someone who has a lot of student loans to pay off, I have to be careful with my money. Everything in my power just does not include going into debt as far as I am concerned.

With that said, I do plan to get the Beta Glucan tomorrow and I have already opened the second box of the $17 Maracyn-2.

I really do appreciate your help with this. You would not believe the ridiculous crap the LFS told me to do...well, maybe you would. But thank you for all of your time and advice.

I looked at a lot of pictures of fish diseases and the closest match I've seen so far looked like lymphocystis.

As an update, no signs of improvement from yesterday, and now its stomach seems to be bulging out on both sides with these white clumps showing up on both sides where its fins touch its body.

 

[TerryB]

Your latest update does not sound good "its stomach seems to be bulging out on both sides with these white clumps showing up on both sides where its fins touch its body". I would discontinue the Maracyn-Two and change medication to Furanase (first choice) or nitrofurazone ASAP. Furanase appears to have some action against fungus as well as bacteria.

It may still be lymphocystis, but if it is then it is a bad case of it. If it is a fungal infection then the symptoms that you describe make it sound like the infection has spread through the entire body. Fungal infections are tough to treat unless caught early and this doesn't sound early to me. Let’s hope it is lymphocystis because it is rarely fatal. Fish in the angel fish family probably suffer from lymphocystis more often than any other group. Unfortunately lymphocystis is often accompanied by other infections or health problems and some of them can be fatal.

I think the next 48 hours will determine the outcome. Please do get the Beta glucan while the fish is still eating. I have heard of dissolving it in some freshwater and then adding it to the tank, but I am not sure how much to use if you administer it in this way. The Beta glucan is probably the fish’s best hope.

Keep in touch with any changes or additional information,
Terry B

 

[ReefGirlSara]

I picked up the beta glucan on Friday. It is 200mg per tablet. I crushed a tablet and added half, so about 100mg to the spirulina enriched brine shrimp and prime reef flakes they love so much. The water turned a cloudy gray color - maybe 100mg was too much. Tonight I only added about 50mg to the food.

As for the fish's condition - it does not look good. The tail seems to be improving slightly, but more fluffy white clumps are popping up and growing everywhere. It still looks the most like lymphocystis from the pictures I've seen, but I don't know. Its stomach is really really swollen. It looks practically like a pregnant fish. It is still swimming pretty well and eating very well.

I cannot get furanase or nitrofurazone anywhere except online. The earliest I would get it would be Tuesday or Wednesday. I do have some Furan-2, would that work?? It says that it treats fungus and bacterial infections similar to what furanase says it treats.

Actually - I just checked the active ingredients on the furan-2 and it is 60mg Nitrofurazone and 25mg Furazolidone per pack. Should I use this and how much per day?

Thanks!

 

[ReefGirlSara]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12692964#post12692964 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TerryB
It is probably and injury, maybe from netting (I don't catch fish in nets).
Terry B

I was reading back over some of your posts and was just curious what you use to catch your fish? I have a fish trap (plexiglass cylinder with a door on one end), but have never had any luck with it.

Also, I realized I did not get the dosing of the beta glucan right - I dosed 1/4 of one of the tablets yesterday, and 1/8 tonight, so about 50mg last night and 25mg tonight. Should I continue with 25mg or go up, or down? How would you recommend adding it to the food exactly? I just added the powder to the frozen food mixture and about a tablespoon of tank water and let it sit for about 15 mins.

 

[TerryB]

What do the instructions say on the Furan2 about the dose? I would follow the instructions, at least for the first day. Use the Furan 2 ASAP, but try to get the Maracyn-Two out first. I don't think a little M2 with the Furan 2 will be a problem, but the two together could be more stressful to the fish. Raise the Specific Gravity a couple of points a day until it reaches 1.018. The swelling is a very bad sign. I think the fish has two different infections ongoing. You can use less than 25mg of the Beta glucan, but there is no real danger of overdose with it.

I catch fish in clear plastic bags or specimen containers. They are hard for the fish to see. You can move them into a clear plastic bag by chasing them (slowly) toward the bag with a net.

Terry B

 

[ReefGirlSara]

The instructions say one packet/10 gallons on day 1, then again on day 2, then wait 24 hrs and do a 25% water change, then repeat for days 3 & 4.

This morning was the second dose. I did a large water change (about 40%) on Sunday and ran carbon. Took the carbon out Monday morning and added 4 packets of Furan 2. (37 Gallon Tank)

The fish looks really bad. The spots are popping up all over, the biggest ones are on the front of dorsal fin and the eye, and the tail is still 60% covered. It's hard to say really if it is getting better or worse - the spots looks worse, and there are more of them, but I think a few old ones went away, and the fish seems to be swimming much better today. Its stomach is still swollen, but it looks like it may have gone down slightly. I'm still adding the beta glucan, selcon, and garlic to its food daily, along with the Furan 2 in the morning. The salinity is at 1.011 right now. I did not want to change it too fast.

The spots on the dorsal fin look different than the tail spots. The tail had continuous connected white poofs of a creamy foamy cotton like thing. The spots on the dorsal fin are not connected together. They are all different sizes, the largest being the size of a grain of rice - maybe slightly smaller, and look a little bit like tiny white fuzzy catterpillars with gray spots on their backs. They could be the same thing as on the tail, but they look a little different, and they are individual things instead of one big clump like on the tail.

The clump on the tail has decreased in size substantially. It was very thick, and now you can see the tail through it. It's almost as if all of the mass that left the tail just relocated to the dorsal, pectoral, pelvic fins, the eye, and the sides of the fish. The white stuff on the sides of the fish almost looks like it is pulling the scales out and getting under them. There is no redness anywhere on the fish and it is still eating very well. It seems to be fairly "happy" to me, even though it looks like it would be very miserable.

I don't know what else to do, so I will continue with what I'm doing for now.

Water is 80 degrees, Nitrates about 10, Ammonia is zero, Salinity is 1.011, pH is 8.1 and staying constant. Think I should bring the pH up?

 

[TerryB]

I wish you could get a clear close-up picture. I am having a hard time figuring out what is going on. It really doesn't sound like something I have seen. There are only so many different types of infections. Those would be: parasitic, fungal, viral, and bacterial. What you describe almost seems to have characteristics from each category. Of course fish have diseases like other animals that we can't do much about (i.e. heart problems, etc.) This sounds like it belongs in one or more of the first four categories.

Continue raising the salinity a couple of points a day when you make the water changes and continue the Furan 2. We may have to try something else tomorrow. This is becoming a hit-or-miss type treatment. You might have to try some praziquantel. Have you tried a freshwater or formalin dip since all this started?

Don't worry about the pH, but don't let it go any lower. A water change will probably raise the pH a little anyway. How is the other angel doing?

Terry B

 

[ReefGirlSara]

I haven't done any dips because I didn't want to stress it out any more than it already is. I have some formalin - I could do that if you think it would be worth a try.

The other angel is doing extremely well, comparatively. The only thing that was wrong with it was the ick, and there are no signs of that now- but since the first time I saw it in the LFS, even before the ich started to show, it has had this spot on its right side, like a blemish or a bruise, but the scales (2 scales) are actually poking out a little there. It is not very noticeable, but it is not going away with all this medication and hypo and everything. That fish looks great otherwise. It has very bright healthy color and seems to get brighter every day. It's tail is getting longer too. It makes me sad to see the other one look so awful next to this one - especially since it used to be the healthy one, and this one was the sick one (with ich). I don't know if that made sense...

 

[TerryB]

Wait and see how the fish looks tomorrow before deciding whether or not to try a dip. I think it is most important to get the swelling down in the stomach area before attempting a dip. I will be very curious as to what happens if you do end up trying a dip.

What strength is the formalin? I get my formalin from a pharmasist rather than in something packaged specifically for the aquarium industry. The correct dose for the 37% formaldehyde that I use is 20 drops per gallon for 45 minutes in an aerated dip. I just use a gallon of water from the tank, add the formalin and aerate strongly before I add the fish. It is perferrable to aerate the dip for at least and hour before adding the fish and to use a heater to keep the water temperature stable. Do NOT use formalin above 80F temperature. Since the water that the fish is in is full of medication, it may be wise to use untreated saltwater for the dip. Make sure that water is well aged and aerated and is the same temp, pH and salinity that the fish is used to. That will be much less stressful to the fish, especially since you can't acclimate it to the dip water before it goes in. If you use a dip keep the lights low. You might consider putting a piece of PVC pipe (inert) in the dip for the fish to hide in. Keep a close eye on it, but the PVC pipe will help the fish feel more secure and reduce stress.

I don't know if you realize how fortunate you are that the fish is still alive and eating. Your fish has been critically ill for quite some time now. Most fish don't recover once they get that sick, but most of them don't get the right treatment to help them get better either. You have done a great job of keeping on top of it.

Terry B

 

[jpccusa]

ReefGirlSara, I am impressed as well! When I had problems with my fish, I rarely even had time to act.

As a piece of advice, don't buy more fish from the same store... Neting is known to put extra stress on fish and to disturb the protective mucus of their skin. And to sell a fish that fell on the ground, that is pretty bad!

TerryB, now bringing a problem of my own that is quite similar... I've had a Coral Beauty and a Green Chromis on my hyposalinity QT for almost 3 weeks now. They've been well, but during the last weekend I noticed some white dots on the angel, larger than ich spots, more like the blunt part of a pin. This morning I noticed that the angel now has a quite large fuzzy white growth on its lower jaw and the chromis started with the same kind of spots on its "forehead."

Both fish are swimming well, breathing well, and eating well. I have to do more observation in order to give more details, which I will do tonight.

So, for now, what is the best thing to do since this "thing" is spreading? Water changes to improve quality? Dips? Full blown medication? Just sit back and wait to see how they fight this on their own?

Just like ReefGirlSara, I don't want to wait until its too late.

Thanks, and sorry Sara for using your thread...

 

[ReefGirlSara]

jpccusa - I don't mind at all! I am just so thankful that Reef Central exists and that I have access to such knowledgeable, helpful, wonderful people like TerryB!!

Thank you for the nice comments but I could not have done it without you, TerryB. I'm not quite to the point of celebrating - it could still go either way, but I am pretty astonished this fish is still swimming and eating almost like it was 100% healthy.

I got some good pictures which I just need to find the time to post. I also took a video on my camera - but I haven't figured out how to do that yet. maybe later today.

The fish seems to be about the same. Better in some ways, and worse in others. Still swimming a lot and eating a lot. I think the stomach swelling has gone down maybe a little. The 2 largest white clumps disappeared last night, almost immediately after a large water change (about 50%) with a higher salinity, went from 1.011 to 1.013. I think more spots are disappearing too - but then new ones seem to be popping up. I can't figure out if I should put this fish in the 'recovering' column or the 'getting worse' column! I'm continuing the Furan-2, today was just the third treatment, I did not do a treatment yesterday because I did not have time for the water change yesterday morning. Did the WC last night and addeed the third treatment of the Furan-2 this morning.

Not much news, I'll try to get the pics and video up.