I canNOT get my water to clear up!!

[coral_reefer_25]

Guys, you all know that I struggle with water clarity. If not, then you do now.

The water was clear (finally) for about two weeks. Then it started to get a little cloudy, so I did a 5-6g water change, and I cleaned out the skimmer, which involves removing it from the sump. That of course, stirs up a ton of crap...but give it a day or two and it generally settles again. This time however, the water is more cloudy than it has ever been. I've been trying to regulate the Ca and Alk levels, but I am SOOOOO not having any luck.

I tested the water over the weekend and got the following:

pH - 8.3
Alk - 8dKH
Ca - 400ppm

I have been adding mostly the Alk/pH part of a 2-part supplement in hopes that I could get my Alk level up a bit and more in balance with the Ca, and last night I tested again.

pH - 8.3
Alk - 10.5dKH
Ca - 380ppm (I'm also topping off with Kalk, so I don't know why it dropped.)

This has become so frustrating for me. The 5.5g upstairs is crystal clear, but my "pride and joy" looks like someone poured some milk into it.

Please help!

 

[cee]

Sounds like a calcium carbonate precipitate. Have you tested your Mg levels to see if they're 1300 ppm or higher? Your first numbers were better, IMO, as I try to stay around 7-9 on Alk and 380-420 on Ca. Also, what test kits are you using and what is their age?

Dave

 

[coral_reefer_25]

That's what I thought too, but I was under the impression that that would only happen when Ca and Alk levels are totally screwed up....like...Alk 7dKH and Ca 550ppm.

I'll admit...I'm using cheap test kits....Aquarium Pharmaceuticals...and they're not quite a year old....of course, who knows how long they sat on the shelf before I bought them from Marine Depot? I have not tested Mg levels, as I do not currently have a Mg test kit, although I have been adding Mg because that has been suggested in the past.

 

[cee]

Adding Mg in what form? Epsom salts? If so, the sulfate ion can precipitate out as well. If I were you, I'd invest in some decent kits and get a good handle on where your parameters really are first before dosing anything further. Or, get one of the locals to help you out with a baseline test so at least you can "calibrate" your test kit against it.

As an example, with a Seachem test kit, I can measure 400 ppm Ca and measure over 500 on the same sample with a Saliferts. It just has to do with how they do the titration. Which is "correct"? I don't really know, but I go by Saliferts because my corals respond well there and it seems to be the "standard" in the hobby for Alk and Ca. Good luck and hope that helps.

Dave

 

[coral_reefer_25]

I guess I'll order some Salifert kits. As for how I'm adding Mg....I was using either Seachem or Kent Marine...I forgot which, but I ran out last night.

 

[coral_reefer_25]

Just ordered a pH, Mg, Ca and Alk kit....

 

[cee]

If you were closer, I'd gladly offer to test your water for you. I still have a strong idea that something is precipitating out, possibly magnesium carbonate (?). Aside from being ugly, short-term it probably isn't a big deal. However, you definately want to get a handle on it long-term. I usually buy my kits here; they have good prices and will price-match.

Dave

 

[mnestroy]

Can you explain more what you mean by "calcium carbonate precipitate"

I am also experience similar problems.. its almost like tiny pieces of sand blowing around the tank?? I've turn almost all powerheads off and very low flow and still wont go away...

I've put a HOB Filter, filled with filter floss and still not any better.

 

[KAiNE]

I can test your water, we dont live too far from each other.

What about your kalk reactor, you dont think your OD'n it do you? That would cause a milky look too. How much kalk gets added in one shot?

What happened to your link cee?
I see -
http://www.<b>removed for violation of our commercial policies</b>.com/index.php?cPath=43&osCsid=194ed05cc835a5ac84cde68a0ad23ea2

I go here - http://www.geocities.com/hans1976/Salifert.html
I generally use custom aquatic for salifert kits

Let me know.

 

[KAiNE]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8789587#post8789587 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mnestroy
Can you explain more what you mean by "calcium carbonate precipitate"

I am also experience similar problems.. its almost like tiny pieces of sand blowing around the tank?? I've turn almost all powerheads off and very low flow and still wont go away...

I've put a HOB Filter, filled with filter floss and still not any better.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/rhf/index.php

 

[Sir Knight]

I will give you a very basic example: You can find more in RC water chemistry area.

What Dave means is there is an imbalance in the chemical make up of your water in this case Cal. When the water make up can not absorb any more Cal there is a change in the Ion which means it takes up a solid form of tiny flakes of Cal floating in the water column, based on the Alk and Mag levels in you tank. This can happen also with mag.

Here is a link to a balance calculator that may help: http://reef.diesyst.com.

We are all assuming you are using RO/DI water and have tested you water that you use for water changes(Alk, Cal and Mag) If you haven't tested your saltwater that you are using for water changes you may want to do that to make sure it is balanced.

When I let my tap water sit in a container without adding anything during the Spring and Fall months it gets cloudy in one or two days. This doesn't happen in the summer or winter months. hence the reason I only use RO/DI water.

 

[Sir Knight]

Some other things to consider

1) Is the tank over stocked with fish?

2) could this be algae blooms or diatoms?

3) is sand being blown around by a power head?

4) how long has the tank been setup? if new tank less then 1 year could be above

5) Ro/Di water being used ? See other post

6) Is the kalk water clear when being added or could you be over dosing since it is a small tank with maybe high evaporation rate? May want to stop using it and just use Ro/DI for top off until the problem clears.

7) are you mixing the Kalk with RO/DI water or tap water? If tap water that could be a problem

8) Magnesium level may be low have you check it ? 1200 or less should be around 1300 ppm

9) are you using any carbon? you may want to

10) you may want to add the Cal part of the 2 part additive to raise Cal levels

11) when you say mixed reef, if you don't have of hard corals or clams you don't need to add a lot of additives (two part additives or for that matter Kalk) to maintain levels.

12) are your test kits actuate?

13) IO if that is what you are using is low in Alk, Mag and Cal, If you are using it you may want to check the saltwater before you add it to your tank and make the adjustment there.

14) at 10.5 dkh your Cal should be around 430 so you may need to add the second part of the 2 part additive. Adjusting one level and not checking the other may be a problem ( all three kind of work together Alk, Cal and Mag)

Just a few things to consider

 

[cee]

Cool geocities link. My link, which I guess violates RC rules because they're not an RC sponsor, is second from the bottom on the geocities link.

 

[coral_reefer_25]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8790095#post8790095 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by KAiNE
I can test your water, we dont live too far from each other.

What about your kalk reactor, you dont think your OD'n it do you? That would cause a milky look too. How much kalk gets added in one shot?

What happened to your link cee?
I see -
http://www.<b>removed for violation of our commercial policies</b>.com/index.php?cPath=43&osCsid=194ed05cc835a5ac84cde68a0ad23ea2

I go here - http://www.geocities.com/hans1976/Salifert.html
I generally use custom aquatic for salifert kits

Let me know.

I don't know about the Kalk reactor. I don't THINK I'm overdosing it. The top-off pump stays on for about 5-6 seconds each time it comes on....lately, it's been once every 2-4 hours depending on ambient temperature/humidity. Because the reactor is all the way across the room and has quite a bit of resistence, I'd say it pushes about a half cup of liquid into the sump each time.

 

[coral_reefer_25]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8790651#post8790651 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sir Knight
Some other things to consider

1) Is the tank over stocked with fish? - No

2) could this be algae blooms or diatoms? - Possibly

3) is sand being blown around by a power head? - No

4) how long has the tank been setup? if new tank less then 1 year could be above - very close to 1 year

5) Ro/Di water being used ? See other post - Yes

6) Is the kalk water clear when being added or could you be over dosing since it is a small tank with maybe high evaporation rate? May want to stop using it and just use Ro/DI for top off until the problem clears. - Kalk water is not totally clear...good possibility of culprit

7) are you mixing the Kalk with RO/DI water or tap water? If tap water that could be a problem - RO/DI

8) Magnesium level may be low have you check it ? 1200 or less should be around 1300 ppm - Working on that....ordered a test kit

9) are you using any carbon? you may want to - No...but I will

10) you may want to add the Cal part of the 2 part additive to raise Cal levels - Will determine that after I get the test kits

11) when you say mixed reef, if you don't have of hard corals or clams you don't need to add a lot of additives (two part additives or for that matter Kalk) to maintain levels. - I have two clams and three or four SPS, some LPS and some softies

12) are your test kits actuate? - doubtful now...ordered Salifert kits yesterday

13) IO if that is what you are using is low in Alk, Mag and Cal, If you are using it you may want to check the saltwater before you add it to your tank and make the adjustment there. - It was suggested that I use IO in lieu of (can't remember...comes in a big blue bucket) BECAUSE it is lower in Ca, which used to run too high.)

14) at 10.5 dkh your Cal should be around 430 so you may need to add the second part of the 2 part additive. Adjusting one level and not checking the other may be a problem ( all three kind of work together Alk, Cal and Mag) - Again, I'll know better what the levels truly are once I get the Salifert test kits.....definitely won't make that mistake again.

Just a few things to consider

Thanks!

 

[mnestroy]

I dont want to steal this thread so please let me know If I should start my own

I have the same problem I think, I have a 40breeder about 8moths old, no corals, 1 Zoo 2 Anonmies... I have been using Reef Crystals.. maybe this is my problem... I assume Reef crystals is intended for tanks with higher calcium/alk needs??

I have test kits which I need to actually need to start using

I have been adding a little liquid calcium and purple up once a week, and after reading these articles now I wonder if my levels are out of wack and these tiny particles i see floating around is "calcium carbonate precipitate"

Please give me some step by step advice how to determine if this is my problem, I have a Cal test and an Alk test, but not a Magnisium test...

Should I also switch to Instant Ocean since I don't have any corals?

Thanks!

 

[Sir Knight]

After reading your response to my questions and also reading your other post, I would say that the kalk is one of your major problems. Here is why: You are adding about 4 or 5 cups of kalk a day to a 29 gallon tank, that is a lot! for that size tank. Kalk Reactors are great tools for larger tanks with a great demand for calcium, I don't see that with your setup. I would highly recommend you either dilute the Kalk solution that you are adding or stop using it completely. Again I would stop for now until you see what your system is doing.

Please don't take this the wrong way but here is one of my old sayings "if you don't test for it, don't add it" when I add make up water for my small 40 gallon tank (and yes it is small) it is just ro/di water. I use the two part (3 part) additive to increase alk, cal and mag) but I don't add it until I test. After a time you will see what your demands are and you may start testing maybe once or twice a month. You are not at that level so I would recommend daily until you get a handle on the usage. Also keep in mind as your corals and clams grow you may need to increase the additives, again you are not there.

Hope this helps.

mnestroy
As for Instant Ocean vs Reef Crystals, I like RC over IO, but that is just my personal opinion. A lot of people use IO salt with great results I just don't like fixing my water before I add it. You need to test your water and adjust as needed. The purple up if I am not mistaken is a Calcium based product so you may be double dosing. You really don't need that product. Again my opinion.

here is a link to the chemistry Calculator that I put in the other post you may want to give it a look as a reference.

http://reef.diesyst.com/

 

[coral_reefer_25]

I'm guessing you're probably right. In the past, the water will clear up when the kalk reactor is low on kalk, but the Ca and Alk levels fall at that time too. Therefore, I add more Kalk....usually about 2 tsp....my Kalk reactor is made of 4" acrylic tubing and is about 43" tall....so it holds a good bit of water.

Anyway, I'll pour out about 50-75% of the solution in the reactor and fill it back up in order to dilute it. If I don't notice a difference after a few days, I'll stop using it all together and maybe later on, bring it back into play with using less Kalk powder.

Thanks a lot for your advice, and I'll post the progress in here.

 

[cee]

Purple up has pulverized aragonite, which form a nucleus for further precipitation of CaCO3. You probably don't need to add Ca if you have no consumers in the tank as your water changes probably provide enough Ca for the coralline and misc. critters in the tank that consume small amounts. As far as salt choice, if you're changing water, you're removing Ca with the old water and replacing it with the new, so as long as the salt is within NSW levels, you should be OK.

Dave

 

[cee]

To quote a paragraph from Randy Holmes Farley's article on Magnesium in the Reef Aquarium (see the RC Reef Chemistry Forum), "Given enough time calcium ions will interact with carbonate ions and precipitate as calcium carbonate. If you push the concentration of either too high, CaCO3 will start to precipitate. Magnesium interferes with this process, permitting both calcium and carbonate to be elevated above where they would be in the absence of magnesium". Precipitation in a nutshell!

Dave