ich article

[coralite]

Hey StevenPro.
Nice article on the details of ich. The protomont stage you discussed is very dependent on adequate substrate to encyst and multiply. As a manager at LFS in Denver and Atlanta I very frequentlly suggested reef tanks without substrate for the first yr of the tank, while the fish population was aquired. Also, for outbreaks of Ich, we discovered that it was very difficult to treat for ich, with copper or UV, in the presence of sand beds. The deeper the sand bed, the graver the condition. Eventually, in the tanks w/o sand beds we experienced 90 % of cases, experiencing non fatal cases of ich for long periods of time, at very reduced levels. I am not at all surprised that your Grouper experienced reduced Ich in fiberglass tanks but it is nice to get some corroboration on the matter. I spent a great deal of effort trying to convince some on this board that Ich was truly dependent on the substrate to reproduce and I was treated like a crazy man.
Your localized protomont hypothesis reaches a little bit but it might be plausible even if it is hard to imagine.

 

[Steven Pro]

Nice article on the details of ich.

<Thank you very much!>

The protomont stage you discussed is very dependent on adequate substrate to encyst and multiply. As a manager at LFS in Denver and Atlanta

<That is one heck of a commute. >

I very frequentlly suggested reef tanks without substrate for the first yr of the tank, while the fish population was aquired. Also, for outbreaks of Ich, we discovered that it was very difficult to treat for ich, with copper or UV, in the presence of sand beds. The deeper the sand bed, the graver the condition. Eventually, in the tanks w/o sand beds we experienced 90 % of cases, experiencing non fatal cases of ich for long periods of time, at very reduced levels. I am not at all surprised that your Grouper experienced reduced Ich in fiberglass tanks

<I just wanted to clarify, it was not my Grouper experience. The reference is Rasheed, Victoria M. 1989 "Disease of Cultured Brown-Spotted Grouper Epinephelus tauvina and Silvery Black Porgy Acanthopagrus curvieri in Kuwait" Journal of Aquatic Animal Health 1:102-107, 1989.>

but it is nice to get some corroboration on the matter. I spent a great deal of effort trying to convince some on this board that Ich was truly dependent on the substrate to reproduce and I was treated like a crazy man.

<I am unsure about liverock as a potential substrate. While, Colroni did seem to imply sand was preferred, he did not say liverock would not at least be adequate. Unfortunately, most everything we know is being extrapolated from experiments done on commercial food fish facilities, as that is where the money is. So, there is no study that I am aware of comparing the protomont affinity for various substrate found in aquaria. But, upon further review most everyone in my references talk about theronts coming from the substratum, seabed, sea floor, etc. It does seem that Ich would prefer sand.>

Your localized protomont hypothesis reaches a little bit but it might be plausible even if it is hard to imagine.

<The exact mechanism for finding a host is currently unknown, but my scenario does fall in line with everything that is understood.>

 

[Steven Pro]

Ok, that was wierd. All my text is missing. Insert in the spaces the following:

Thank you!

That is quite a commute !

I just wanted to clarify that the Grouper experience ws not mine. The reference is Rasheed, Victoria M. 1989 "Disease of Cultured Brown-Spotted Grouper Epinephelus tauvina and Silvery Black Porgy Acanthopagrus curvieri in Kuwait" Journal of Aquatic Animal Health 1:102-107, 1989.

It does seem Ich prefers a sand substrate. While not stating protomonts will not settle on liverock, my references all say something about the theronts coming from the substratum, seabed, sea floor, etc. Unfortunately, all our information on the subject is being extrapolated from studies done on commercial food fish facilities, as that is where the money is. I did not find any study comparing the protomont affinity for various materials used in aquaria, but it seems sand is the preference. I still utilize DSB because they have so many other benefits and I am militant about quarantine.

My scenario of theronts attacking at night is not proven, but does fall in line with everything that is currently understood.

 

[TerryB]

Hi Steve,
I think that overall you did a very nice job with your article. However, I do have one concern that comes immediately to mind. I think that some people are going to misinterpet the portion about the transfer method as a cure. The heading for it says "Water Changes" so my concern it that people will think that water changes will cure ich when in fact the water changes have little to do with what makes the transfer method effective. It works by destroying the tomonts through drying and really does nothing to the theronts (free swimming stage) or trophonts attached to the fish. I don't know exactly how long it takes for tomonts to be destroyed by drying but Colorni suggested cleaning the tank and letting it dry for three days. Then the fish can be switched back to the first tank and the tomonts can then be destroyed in the second container (and so on). We should also keep in mind that even after the fish have been treated in two seperate quarantine tanks, with the transfer method, the tomonts that remain in the display aquaria are still viable. This means that the treated fish should not be placed back into the display for a minimum of thirty days (left without fish a total of 30 days).
BTW, I see that you used one of my articles as a reference and another was suggested as additional reading. Turnabout is fair play and I intend on using your comments about the dangers of netting in an article that should appear next month in Reef Keeping online. I have been fine tuning a method to make the transfer method safer and less stressful to fish and I am being questioned about making a statement very similar to yours about the problems associated with the use of nets. My article is not actually about ich. It talks about the use of nets and the problems associated with the practice.
Good job,
Terry B

 

[Steven Pro]

Hi Steve,
I think that overall you did a very nice job with your article. However, I do have one concern that comes immediately to mind. I think that some people are going to misinterpet the portion about the transfer method as a cure. The heading for it says "Water Changes" so my concern it that people will think that water changes will cure ich when in fact the water changes have little to do with what makes the transfer method effective. It works by destroying the tomonts through drying and really does nothing to the theronts (free swimming stage) or trophonts attached to the fish. I don't know exactly how long it takes for tomonts to be destroyed by drying but Colorni suggested cleaning the tank and letting it dry for three days. Then the fish can be switched back to the first tank and the tomonts can then be destroyed in the second container (and so on). We should also keep in mind that even after the fish have been treated in two seperate quarantine tanks, with the transfer method, the tomonts that remain in the display aquaria are still viable. This means that the treated fish should not be placed back into the display for a minimum of thirty days (left without fish a total of 30 days).

I probably should have gone more in depth about the tank transfer method. It is just that I quit using it years ago in favor of just water changes. I believe the daily cleaning of the tank will dislodge tomonts and then subsequent vacuuming will reduce their number along with any protomonts and theronts that you happen to catch swimming around. No peer review studies on that, just personal experience of myself and Anthony Calfo.

BTW, I see that you used one of my articles as a reference and another was suggested as additional reading. Turnabout is fair play and I intend on using your comments about the dangers of netting in an article that should appear next month in Reef Keeping online.

Ahh, you are why part two won't come out until October. Really, I like having the extra time.

I have been fine tuning a method to make the transfer method safer and less stressful to fish and I am being questioned about making a statement very similar to yours about the problems associated with the use of nets. My article is not actually about ich. It talks about the use of nets and the problems associated with the practice.

Just personal experience here, but those green mesh nets are the worst. Getting caught on fins and gills and scratching eyes - "causing" cloudy eye and pop-eye infections. The fine mesh, white material ones are better and many times I just use my hands, but I have been doing this for a long time and would not/could not recommend that to the general public.

Good job,
Terry B

Thank you! That means a lot coming from you.

 

[Steven Pro]

I am really going to have to get a lesson or something in using the quote feature. I have messed it up twice in this one thread. My comments are imbedded in your quote.