Ich-Attack

I've been dealing with ich for about six weeks now. Despite knowing better, the tank was stocked rapidly (cured LR and live sand, fish, and corals) without proper quarantine. Everything was going fine until the wife brought home Dori, i.e. a juvenile regal tang, for my 5yr old daughters Yeah we have a pair of Nemos too!

To make a long story short, she was trapped and treated in a 10g hospital tank with Quick cure (formalin and malachite green) and hyposalinity. But of course this did nothing for the problem in the display tank. A few other fish got some cysts but nothing too terrible. After Dori looked better she went back into the main tank.

I treated the main tank with Ich Attack. I do believe this product is at least somewhat effective, and it did not harm any of my inverts (corals, clams, snails, conchs, pink cuke, or crabs) or LR. It temporarily turns the water brown and nosedives the redox potential, without really affecting pH. The recommended dose does seem inadequate, I would suggest dosing at least twice if not three times a day -- after several hours the redox potential recovers and the water clears, and I suspect it is no longer active. Unfortunately being organic, the skimmer will pull it out of the water as will carbon. So to keep the active ingredients in the water column for any length of time, filtration must be turned off... along with decreased light penetrating the browned water expect some a nuisance algae proliferation.

I also began marinating fish food (mixed frozen foods) with Seachem products, specifically Garlic Guard, Focus and Metronidazole. Cleaner shrimp were added too, but the fish which were most affected were too small to be cleaned.

Together these treatments were fairly effective although by no means did they eliminate the ich. I did feel the problem was under control and I did not lose any fish. In the absence of other more aggressive pathogens like velvet, the treatment of marine ich (including stress of capturing sick fish and removing them from the tank) may be worse than the disease itself.

I recently stopped dosing Ich Attack, and began supplementing the food marinade with fresh ground ginger root, based on the long thread elsewhere on RC. I wasn't expecting much, but surprisingly I have not seen a single ich cyst since the day after ginger-treated food was given.

Two things I learned from a lot of research on ich --

1. There is a stage in the life cycle where it can be dormant on a fish's gills indefinitely... hence the line of thinking that all aquariums harbor ich. This probably also explains why some people have done the "correct" treatment of isolating/treating all fish with copper, hyposalinity, etc. and leaving the display tank fishless for 6-8 weeks, then having it recur anyway.

2. After about 12-13 reproductive cycles, the organisms die presumably from progressive genetic mutation or apoptosis. So if no new fish are added to an aquarium for somewhere between 6-12 months, all active cryptocaryon will be dead. Dormant organisms in the gills may still be present though, potentially causing an outbreak if other stressors weaken the fish.
 
1. There is a stage in the life cycle where it can be dormant on a fish's gills indefinitely... hence the line of thinking that all aquariums harbor ich. This probably also explains why some people have done the "correct" treatment of isolating/treating all fish with copper, hyposalinity, etc. and leaving the display tank fishless for 6-8 weeks, then having it recur anyway.

This is an interesting statement and I would like to see a more indepth ananlysis or resources from where this statement is validated.

2. After about 12-13 reproductive cycles, the organisms die presumably from progressive genetic mutation or apoptosis. So if no new fish are added to an aquarium for somewhere between 6-12 months, all active cryptocaryon will be dead. Dormant organisms in the gills may still be present though, potentially causing an outbreak if other stressors weaken the fish.

Can these presumably "dormant" cells infect other fish when newly added? I would assume some because now it is new meat in the system.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11327121#post11327121 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Freed
Paul is referring to hypo for the recommended period of no less than 4-6 weeks after seeing the last visible sign of the ich on the fish. The other 3 stages are spent hatching, swimming looking for fish to attach to, etc... Please do more research.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. (In response to, "Parasites need a fish host, if there is no host than there is no ich")
 
I read this in several different articles, one of which was a rather technical veterinary reference (which I cannot find at the moment). Here is one link describing it, though I'll admit is not an authoritative source:

http://saltaquarium.about.com/library/blank/blichcycle.htm

Specifically #1 - Tomont stage, under the second bullet

Honestly I have no idea whether this is true or not, most discussions about the Cryptocaryon lifecycle don't describe this. But it would explain why ich can reappear after successful treatment of all fish after reintroduction into a tank that has been fish free for months. And also how it can show up in a tank that has been disease free long term, after introduction of a highly susceptible fish (like a regal or powder blue tang, for instance) even after properly quarantined. Basically fish like these i.e. the so-called "ich magnets" may be more likely to harbor the parasite in its latent phase, emerging when the fish is stressed i..e transport/acclimation.

I have no idea how common either of these scenarios may be, but I have read many plenty of individual stories about each on the various fish/reef forums.

If there is such a thing as a dormant tomont living indefinitely in a fish's gills (where it is protected by mucus and not susceptible to copper, hyposalinity, etc) it absolutely could decide to reactivate at some point and either infect the fish carrying it, or any other fish in the system.

I'm not an infectious disease expert, but I do know a lot of human pathogens (bacteria, virus, protozoa, even prion) which can enter a dormant / spore phase which is refractory to medications, and sometimes even severe physical measures. An opportunistic illness then manifests decades later when the host is weakened by old age, cancer or some other malady. Mycobacteria are a classic example, often causing an asymptomatic infection in the young upon exposure, then laying in wait for many years to emerge as a serious "reactivation TB" infection. In the case of a virus, consider childhood chickenpox returning as herpes zoster late in life. The ultimate protozoal diseae of humans, malaria, indeed has a lifecycle phase where the organism lies dormant in the liver indefinitely -- with the potential for a relapse long after the patient is "cured". Interestingly despite intensive research on plasmodium for well over 100 years, its latent lifecycle stage was not recognized until about fairly recently! That discovery was the final link in understanding the parasite's lifecycle; previously some re-infections could not be explained.




<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11329088#post11329088 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by badigital
1. There is a stage in the life cycle where it can be dormant on a fish's gills indefinitely... hence the line of thinking that all aquariums harbor ich. This probably also explains why some people have done the "correct" treatment of isolating/treating all fish with copper, hyposalinity, etc. and leaving the display tank fishless for 6-8 weeks, then having it recur anyway.

This is an interesting statement and I would like to see a more indepth ananlysis or resources from where this statement is validated.

2. After about 12-13 reproductive cycles, the organisms die presumably from progressive genetic mutation or apoptosis. So if no new fish are added to an aquarium for somewhere between 6-12 months, all active cryptocaryon will be dead. Dormant organisms in the gills may still be present though, potentially causing an outbreak if other stressors weaken the fish.

Can these presumably "dormant" cells infect other fish when newly added? I would assume some because now it is new meat in the system.
 
It is completely moot to go back and forth explaining the facts. Truth is a very narrow minded thing. It would have to be, the facts are there. Even in these top threads on this forum written by marine biologists and scientists which were written simply because there is the same circle going round and round about supposed new research. Ich is a huge money maker for the fish treatment companies. To alleviate the problem using proven methods would put a multi-million dollar industry under. So to perpetuate the on-going problem the put out products that the consumers ask for. A product that will kill parasites without having to break down a very large very populated tank. There is no such product, and there is no federal or state regulations on these products so they can slap anything on a label.
There is also the natural remedies that are circulating now of ginger root, garlic and others. They help stimulate appetite and immunity but that isn't a cure. The reason you see a system with no visible signs of ich is because though ich is still in the tank, the population is controlled by the fish's natural immunity (the reason some fish are more prone to ich ie. tangs and grammas and why gobies and mandarines seem to not get it) that is why when you have a see a infestation after a new fish is added. Because that new fish doesn't have the immunity. Stress lowers immunity and it is stressful to old fish for a new fish is in the tank because they have an intruder into their territory. Like I said it is moot, everyone has their way of doing it. It's not cut and dry, it's your fish, your tank. Do what you want for it. Bottom line, ich is only a mystery to the hobbyist because there is so much conflicting information. It would border on a religon to most. But just like religon there is absolute truth. Whether joe hobbyist thinks his method is right or susie reefer thinks hers is. There is a correct way of eliminating ich, I'm not even saying it is nessarily my way. I'm just saying we owe it to our very expensive animals to find it and practice that method.
 

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