Ich!! Emergency

[Chago09]

ok my tank is well over a year old, my stock list is below. My nitrogen cycle has been perfect since the begining. Ammo, trite and trate have always been undetectable. Then sometime last week I last my watchman goby who was pretty large. He seemed healthy although seemed to keep getting thinner even though he ate like a pig. Well he died somewhere in the rock work and I cant find him anywhere.

My Powder Blue who has been in my tank for over 6 months. He has eaten from the first day I got him. He was very pale coloured when I picked him up from Big als(go figure) although within days of being in my tank he really coloured up and fattened up. Well 2 days ago I noticed a couple spots around his head. Then yesterday he was covered in it. BINGO my very first ich outbreak in over a year. The powder blue is covered in the spots although still ate dried seaweed like a pig last night. The tank is only fed once a day. Every evening I feed a small piece of mysis for the meat eaters and small pieces of dried seaweed for the veggie lovers.

I immediatly went to check all the levels and sure enough nitrate is amazingly high, its 80ppm. My phosphate was amazingly high as well. My immediate reaction is that this is from the rotting watchman goby in the tank.

Now I'm not the one to rush and do water changes, because in my mind that will cause even more stress on the system. I want the live rock and sand bed to bring down the levels naturally and slowly.

1.) Would this rise in nitrate be from the dead fish?

2.) could high nitrate cause the powder blue to get ich?

3.)could high phosphate effect the fish???

4.) What I don't understand is the phos and trate is crazy high although all the corals and clams are wide open and happy as a clam, why would this be?

5.) what steps can I take to making this fish healthy?? the powder blue seems to be acting perfectly fine, eating great, simming all over, although just has all the spots.


Please help folks I don't want to loose the center piece of my tank

Thanks

 

[patsfan1130]

1.) Would this rise in nitrate be from the dead fish? Yes, very likely

2.) could high nitrate cause the powder blue to get ich? although fish can be tolerant of high trate levels..High levels will stress fish out

3.)could high phosphate effect the fish??? Yes


5.) what steps can I take to making this fish healthy?? the powder blue seems to be acting perfectly fine, eating great, simming all over, although just has all the spots. I would immediately setup a hospital tank and transfer the fish to it and treat with copper. leave DT fishless for 6 weeks

 

[Chago09]

for me to catch these fish I need to literally destroy everything. It will be impossible to catch him and will be atleast a 3 hour chase. More than likely will kill the fish just chasing it.

Isn't there some ich meds that are reef safe?

 

[patsfan1130]

These "so called" Ich meds are nothing more than modern day snake oils. They do not work. The parasite attaches itself to the host and generally fals off within 3 or 4 days. Often times this happens shortly after the individual treats the tank with these meds giving them the false beleif that the med worked when in reality, it didnt.

there are 2 proven methods to succesfully treating Ich...Hyposlinity and treating the fish with copper. either method needs to be performed in QT as copper will kill anything living in the DT including LS & LR and hyposalinity will do the same because it involves dropping the salinity down to dangerous levels. It is done gradually so that the fish have time to acclimate.

I prefer copper treatment myself. there are many good links in the disease forum. I suggest you go there and do some reading. trust me though, Ich meds do not work.

 

[jbc123]

Don't cleaner shrimp eat Ich?

And how do you get Ich after a year without adding anything to the tank? Does it spontaneously generate? Or can it lie dormant for months and then just wake up when it feels like it?

 

[r0bin]

Your choices here are simple, hypo or copper. Neither can be done in the main tank. You HAVE to catch this fish and treat it. If you do not there is a small chance it could recover but then you always have the fact that it could break out at anytime again and infect and/or kill other fish. Again, thats a small chance it will recover, it also may die. Not a chance I would take. Catch the fish and treat it. I had to catch my yellow tang 3 times once to treat it for black ich with freshwater dips. If I could catch it 3 times you can catch yours once. Move everything to one side and chase it to the empty side, have a friend help. Good luck.

 

[abulgin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13295148#post13295148 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by r0bin
Your choices here are simple, hypo or copper. Neither can be done in the main tank. You HAVE to catch this fish and treat it. If you do not there is a small chance it could recover but then you always have the fact that it could break out at anytime again and infect and/or kill other fish. Again, thats a small chance it will recover, it also may die. Not a chance I would take. Catch the fish and treat it. I had to catch my yellow tang 3 times once to treat it for black ich with freshwater dips. If I could catch it 3 times you can catch yours once. Move everything to one side and chase it to the empty side, have a friend help. Good luck.

I doubt that a rotting small fish, like a Watchman, would cause nitrates to shoot up. It's possible, but I think doubtful. My guess is you have a nitrate problem outside this dead fish.

Fish that are infected with ich but are healthy enough to suppress it generally can be overwhealmed by the disease if a stresser tips the balance in favor of the parasite and against the fish's immune system. Anything that induces stress can tip this balance.

To add to what Robin said, not only do you need to get this fish out of the tank and into a hospital tank, you need to get every fish out and treat--they are all infected. You have two choices--leave the fish in the tank and hope they make it, or get every fish out and treat and leave the display fishless for 6 weeks. You will not beat ich by leaving the fish in the tank. I have seen some evidence that ich will naturally die after 11 months, but personally I wouldn't rely on this evidence.

Many of us have been where you are--faced with the unpalatable choice of breaking down a tank. Honestly, you can hem and haw about the pain in the butt it will be, but it's really the only way to go here.

Water changes aren't really that stressful. I would change the water to get the phosphates and nitrates down, and figure out why your levels are so high.

 

[Chago09]

ya the watchman goby was not little. He was atleast 4" long if not longer. Was a full grown out adult. A lot of meat to rot.

So you guys are literally telling me that I need to tear my reef down completly. Over a years work done?

One poster raised a good point, how did it get in my tank in the first place?? I have not added anything to to the tank in the last 5-6 months. Nothing!!! not even a snail.

As for the nitrate issue. It had to be the rotting fish, since a few days before this all occured it was my normal maintenance day. I checked nitrate and it was undetectable. Then in like 3 days goes to 80ppm. Had to be the fish

 

[Macimage]

So you guys are literally telling me that I need to tear my reef down completly.

Yes, that is what everyone has pretty much said as you stated you can not catch the pbt.

You need to catch the pbt to treat it and it you can't due to your rockwork, you'll need to remove the rockwork to catch the fish. Here is a great thread that advocates draining most of the water out to catch your fish and then putting it back in. That may be a bit easier:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=707656&highlight=catch

Unfortunately, reefing is hard sometimes. I've spent many a long weekend redoing and/or correcting problems. It's not fun.

You may want to get a good cleanup crew so that next time they will dispose of any carcasses.

Good Luck!
Joyce

 

[stuccodude]

before you tear down your set up and stress your fish out do what i did (was told on rc to do this) soak your food with kents garlic extreme and if you dont see a positive effect within 3 days then proceed. its been 2 years since my outbreak on my pbt and blue tang and still no ich. some will say this method is impossible, cant hurt to try right. garlic saved my tank.

 

[Chago09]

I posted another thread asking if you could use copper in a FOWLR tank. If this is the case then would it not be easier for me to just remove the corals in a qt tank and then dose the whole display with copper. Then after all is well bring the corals back???

This seems like it would be a lot easier.


As for the clean up crew, what could I get that would eat this fish carcas??

 

[CAROLGYRL]

I had bought a small tang, that got ich. I finally got him, he was too far gone, but a few days later my hippo showed up with ick. I tried to get him for several day. I hand fed the fish to get them used to the net. had it hanging inthe tank. He finally was coming around for food, up to the top. I had started ginving him, and all of them, some garlic. The ich is gone!!it took 2 or 3 days. I am still learning, but i figured out that I would get him used to the net, and all, the idea was at first to be able to get him, i'm going to leave well enought alone. I have been told that ich is in almost every tank,but comes out when a fish is stressed.Whether that is correct or not, i do not know. I am feeding my fish garlic now, liquid, mixed in their frozen food. I did see that someone built a clear plexiglass box, put some food in it,had a lid that would come down, put it in the tank, and got the hippo out after 6 minutes or so.there is a thread on it somewhere, it was very funny!good luck

 

[otrlynn]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13303639#post13303639 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Chago09
I posted another thread asking if you could use copper in a FOWLR tank. If this is the case then would it not be easier for me to just remove the corals in a qt tank and then dose the whole display with copper. Then after all is well bring the corals back???

This seems like it would be a lot easier.


As for the clean up crew, what could I get that would eat this fish carcas??

You don't want to dose a copper-based medication in the tank that has the live rock and sand in it, not to mention inverts if you have them. The tank and sand will absorb the copper and make it hard to get the dosage right. Then the rock and sand will leach copper back into the water for who knows how long, killing any invertebrate you ever try to put in the tank.

Re the fish carcass--is it still in your tank??? Can you siphon it out if you know where it is? Hermit crabs would eat it if, in fact, there is anything left of it.

 

[otrlynn]

Sorry, that should say the "rock" and sand will absorb copper...