ich flare up DURING hypo treatment?

[crvz]

I got a few new fish, QTed them for 4 weeks, then put them in the display. Soon thereafter, the powder blue tang has visible ich. I suspect this fish had it the entire time, but didnt show any signs until introduced into the display.

I pull out all the fish (from a 300 gallon display, not a fun chore) and stick them in my 120 gallon QT system. Here is the powder blue the day I put all the fish in QT on 2/2/2012.

Literally the next day, 2/3/2012, after dropping the specific gravity down to 1.016 (on the way to 1.010), the powder blue looked like this.

Today, however, the fish has visible ich again. I'm a little surprised. The specific gravity has been about 1.010 for 8 days now, and I am using an auto top-off to keep it consistent. Here's an image I took minutes ago.

It's still eating, and none of the other fish are showing obvious parasites (though a few did have them when I first put them in QT). I dropped the specific gravity a bit more this morning, but is it expected to see a flare up after being in hyposalinity for this long? Or might I be missing something? Should I recalibrate my refractometer?

 

[Jdbrine]

1.010 isn't low enough to kill the ich. I have done Hypo 5-6 times over the last 8 years and from my experience you need your salinity around 1.002-1.004 for it to be effective. Get it that low and you will see improvement quickly. Some people think that's too low. But its where you need to be for hyposalinity to be successful. Good luck with everything.

 

[Jdbrine]

1.010 isn't low enough to kill the ich. I have done Hypo 5-6 times over the last 8 years and from my experience you need your salinity around 1.002-1.004 for it to be effective. Get it that low and you will see improvement quickly. Some people think that's too low. But its where you need to be for hyposalinity to be successful. Good luck with everything.

Also I don't know if you are planning on it but all fish will need to be treated whether they show signs or not. If you qt the powder blue and cure him then put home back in your DT the ich will pop back up. I'd go ahead and catch the rest of your fish and qt them at the same time. I know that sucks but its the only way to not have more ich outbreaks in the future. I'd recommend leaving your tank fallow for a minimum of 8 weeks.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Hypo SG needs to be 1.008-1.009. This isn't easy without a good, perfectly calibrated refractometer and an ATO. All it takes is a short time at a higher SG, due to evaporation, to allow ich to start a new cycle. Also, IMO & IME, 4 weeks is nowhere near long enough for the initial QT period. Ich can take longer to show itself. I go 8 weeks. It isn't unusual to have ich spots appear during treatment of any kind; the whitespot is not the actual parasite----its buried under the skin and can't be killed at that point. I'd read sk8r's hypo sticky at the top of this section of the forum.

 

[dunc101]

Originally Posted by Jdbrine
1.010 isn't low enough to kill the ich. I have done Hypo 5-6 times over the last 8 years and from my experience you need your salinity around 1.002-1.004 for it to be effective. Get it that low and you will see improvement quickly. Some people think that's too low. But its where you need to be for hyposalinity to be successful. Good luck with everything.

What type of species of fish did you use 1.002 - 1.004 on? How long did you stay at these parameters?

I thought most saltwater fish could only tollerate 1.008 and up, hence, why we do 1.008-1.009 hypo treatments. It would be very interesting to know "how low salinity can go" for a particular species to make hypo treatments a little less error prone if someone chose hypo without an ATO and assuming the refractometer has been perfectly calobrated. Does anyone know of any charts or studies that have been done indicating how low of salinity a particular species of fish can tolerate?

 

[MrTuskfish]

1.010 isn't low enough to kill the ich. I have done Hypo 5-6 times over the last 8 years and from my experience you need your salinity around 1.002-1.004 for it to be effective. Get it that low and you will see improvement quickly. Some people think that's too low. But its where you need to be for hyposalinity to be successful. Good luck with everything.

Was this a dip or extended treatment? A (SW, CMA) fish surviving for any length of time at 1.002-1.004 would indicate a refractometer badly in need of re-calibrating.

 

[crvz]

Hypo SG needs to be 1.008-1.009. This isn't easy without a good, perfectly calibrated refractometer and an ATO. All it takes is a short time at a higher SG, due to evaporation, to allow ich to start a new cycle. Also, IMO & IME, 4 weeks is nowhere near long enough for the initial QT period. Ich can take longer to show itself. I go 8 weeks. It isn't unusual to have ich spots appear during treatment of any kind; the whitespot is not the actual parasite----its buried under the skin and can't be killed at that point. I'd read sk8r's hypo sticky at the top of this section of the forum.

I'm learning the hard way in regards to QT period... I will certainly not go that short in the future.

I do have an ATO, but my refractometer calibration could be in question. For lower specific gravity such as this, what's the recommend calibration method?

 

[snorvich]

In my opinion, if you are using hypo, you must keep it at 1.008/1.009 (not easy to do) for 9 weeks. Remember it is only the free swimming part of the life cycle that is being killed whereas cysts are not affected. If you rise above this threshold you are, in effect, restarting the clock. I would calibrate with Pinpoint solution and check the standard error of the mean for the refractometer you are using. (more simply stated, what is the error of measurement for the instrument you are using). Visual ich symptoms are not all that relevant during treatment since cysts are not being killed while embedded in the fish. They will/must drop to reproduce. What is more relevant is time. You need to treat/observe long enough to make sure another cycle of the parasite has not started.

 

[alprazo]

Having done hypo several times, I recommend chloroquine.

 

[crvz]

In my opinion, if you are using hypo, you must keep it at 1.008/1.009 (not easy to do) for 9 weeks. Remember it is only the free swimming part of the life cycle that is being killed whereas cysts are not affected. If you rise above this threshold you are, in effect, restarting the clock. I would calibrate with Pinpoint solution and check the standard error of the mean for the refractometer you are using. (more simply stated, what is the error of measurement for the instrument you are using). Visual ich symptoms are not all that relevant during treatment since cysts are not being killed while embedded in the fish. They will/must drop to reproduce. What is more relevant is time. You need to treat/observe long enough to make sure another cycle of the parasite has not started.

Thanks Steve. So I'll plan on 9 weeks at 1.009 specific gravity and then another 4 weeks observation while allowing the display to go fallow for 13 weeks total.

 

[Jdbrine]

What type of species of fish did you use 1.002 - 1.004 on? How long did you stay at these parameters?

I thought most saltwater fish could only tollerate 1.008 and up, hence, why we do 1.008-1.009 hypo treatments. It would be very interesting to know "how low salinity can go" for a particular species to make hypo treatments a little less error prone if someone chose hypo without an ATO and assuming the refractometer has been perfectly calobrated. Does anyone know of any charts or studies that have been done indicating how low of salinity a particular species of fish can tolerate?

I have done it on Tangs, clowns, angels gobies, butterfly's, and wrasses. I never lost any fish during hypo. The 1.004 range will kill the ich and if your salinity does raise a point or two you have a good cushion to were the ich doesn't have a chance for a new cycle. I've even had my salinity at 1.002 and never had any problems.... I highly recommend going down to at least 1.004. The safest bet to leave no room for error.

 

[Jdbrine]

I kept them at that salinity for 6 weeks then over the next 2 weeks began to slowly raise the salinity back up whole monitoring them. So a total of 8 weeks was maintained out of the DT.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Having done hypo several times, I recommend chloroquine.

Yeah, hypo is much more difficult than advertised (IMO). It isn't my first choice either.

 

[crvz]

Yeah, hypo is much more difficult than advertised (IMO). It isn't my first choice either.

To follow up, what would be your first choice?

I ended up losing that powder blue tang, but not from the ich. To be fair, he had only eaten nori since I had gotten him, and I don't know if that's a sustainable diet over the long term (particularly coupled with the stress of parasites and lowered salinity). All the other fish are doing well, however, and I havent seen any visible parasite in the last 4 weeks. I a still at 1.009 specific gravity.