Ich in remission?

[ThrowedToad]

Yesterday I noticed a large mass of white spots on my yellow tang, I then checked out my sixline wrasse and it also had some white spots on it. Well the lady at my LFS gave me a bottle of kick ich, I dosed the tank yesterday per instructions and today there is signifigantly less and smaller spots on the fish. Is the ich in remission, or should I stress them out by breaking my whole tank down to catch them and put them in my QT?

 

[jrp1588]

ich tends to get stronger and weaker in waves from what I've seen. It's part of it's life cycle. I've heard a lot of talk that kick ich is useless, I've also heard it's great. Supposed to be a 50/50 fix.

 

[RegalAngel]

Kick Ich, No-Ich use the same chemical to kill the ich parasite in the free floating stage. It does not kill them while they are on the fish nor after they fall off the fish. You are probably looking at 4 weeks treatment after you see no more white spots on the fishes.

http://www.fishvet.com/no-ich_faqs.htm

What is the life cycle of this parasite?

The life cycle of Cryptocaryon can be conveniently divided into four basic stages. Susceptible marine fish become infected with the active free-swimming stage, called the tomite.

The free swimming tomite has less than 12 hours to find and invade a host fish otherwise it will exhaust its energy reserves and die.

If an invasion is successful, the tomite penetrates below the skin and transforms into the parasitic stage which is known as a trophont. The trophont actively feeds on the fish's tissues, twisting and rotating as it does so. It grows rapidly, doubling in size approximately every 24 hours. By 48 hours, the parasitic trophont is just visible to the naked eye, appearing as a small white spot on the fish. By the third or fourth day of infection, the trophont has attained 3 to 5 millimeters in length and about this time it exits from the fish and drops down to the substrate.

Within a few hours the trophont has firmly attached to the substrate, forming a thick walled cyst. The cyst, known as a tomont, is the reproductive stage which will eventually give rise to between 100 and 300 infective tomites, thereby completing the life cycle.

Of course, not all tomites are successful in locating and infecting a host, even under ideal conditions only about 5 - 10% succeed. Nevertheless, within a closed environment, Cryptocaryon can increase in numbers by approximately tenfold every six to eight days. This enormous reproductive potential explains the sometimes rapid build-up of infection levels in any closed system.

 

[ThrowedToad]

I just finished setting up a hospital tank. With SG of 1.011 until I get somemore RO. Using formalin and some inert rock for asthetics, a filter without the carbon and setting the temp to 82 degrees. Does this sound about right? Do I need to cycle it?

 

[wooden_reefer]

I just finished setting up a hospital tank. With SG of 1.011 until I get somemore RO. Using formalin and some inert rock for asthetics, a filter without the carbon and setting the temp to 82 degrees. Does this sound about right? Do I need to cycle it?

What is your plan to reduce ammonia in QT water to very low during the eight or more weeks of treatment needed to eradicate ich?

Two questions come to mind naturally.

1. What is a drug's effect on nitrification bacteria in QT?

2. How dense a population of nitrification bacteria do I need in QT to process all the ammonia? Moreover, if a drug will mildly affect nitrification, then perhaps you will need even more bacteria at the initial stage of QT treatment.

If one would only think about QT logically, many questions answer themselves. Needed is skill to prepare in advance.

Always cycle the medium intended for biological filtration in QT very well in advance and avoid any drug that affects nitrification (or less so) whenever a choice of drug/treatment exists.

 

[sfboarders]

I just finished setting up a hospital tank. With SG of 1.011 until I get somemore RO. Using formalin and some inert rock for asthetics, a filter without the carbon and setting the temp to 82 degrees. Does this sound about right? Do I need to cycle it?

Sounds like you are going the hyposalinity route. You can run filter with carbon when using hyposalinity. It is important that you cycle a medium to control your ammonia, nitrite and nitrates. I just bought a larger QT and some new fishes and I already see ich on the fish. But before that, I cycled some filters and filter pads for 1.5 months in a separate tank for a robust cycle. Keep some amquel + or prime close by in case it goes up. Be prepared to dose because of low pH. Good Luck. :thumbsup:

 

[wooden_reefer]

Neither hypo (gradual) nor copper will affect nitrification significantly.

For the eradication of ich alone, ammonia should never be an issue in QT if you had cycled the medium in QT robustly. Sometimes, say if you are just adding a goby into a 75 gal DT, it is possible and feasible to rob some bacteria in DT to be used in a QT; otherwise, you should cycle the medium for QT in advance, either using the QT itself or a separate container.

If unfortunately, say bacterial infection takes place while you are eradicating ich, the issue of ammonia in QT will be a bit or much more complex. Otherwise, ammonia will/should never be an issue in QT for the eradication of ich.

Cycling for the medium intended for filtration in QT is very very very easy; there is absolutely no reason to avoid it. There is no need to change any water during the cycling. Just two nitrite tests will confirm a robust cycle.

You use a small amount of water to cycle and then dump the cycling water so you would not include any cycling water in the QT. You can QT many fish at once in theory and in practice, although for newbies it is better to QT few fish at a time as you learn the ropes in disease control.

And, ever a newbie may be forced to QT, in essense, may fish at once. If an ich outbreak occurs, even a newbie will be compelled to QT, in essense, all fish at once. Then a newbie will have to learn faster than usual.

 

[RBU1]

Are you taking the fish right from normal salinity to hypo? I would suggest you have your treatment tank at the same level as your main tank. Get the fish in and then start to lower salinity over the course of a few days.

Hypo in my opinion is a PITA....Make sure you have plenty of makeup water already matched to the 1.008 salinity. You are going to have to change water almost daily. The PH is going to be hard to maintain so make sure you have plenty of arm and hammer baking soda...

 

[ThrowedToad]

Thank you all for your input, it is well recieved. Using the Kick Ich and some garlic on my nori, it seem as if the ich is gone. Keeping my eyes peeled. I am just going to turn my hospital into a quarantine being that I did not have one.(I bought all the fish I have at the same time).

 

[wooden_reefer]

.(I bought all the fish I have at the same time).

There are pros and cons in getting all fish at once.

For those experienced in disease control and treatment (may I say proper cycling procedure), it is a good idea to stock fish as quickly as possible. For me, I always stock as fast as I can, as I can get the best choices of fish.

Newbies should stock more slowly and QT fewer fish at a time. Many sick fish in one tank is a very sorry and frightening sight.

 

[ThrowedToad]

I bought 3 and don't intend on anymore but just in case.

 

[RBU1]

For those experienced in disease control and treatment (may I say proper cycling procedure), it is a good idea to stock fish as quickly as possible. For me, I always stock as fast as I can, as I can get the best choices of fish.

.

Again I have to disagree here....The best way to QT is one at a time. Now if you want to do mulitples then you need multiple tanks. By doing one you can make sure you are not infecting other fish, you can keep a close eye on that fish
and you can treat each fish as needed and not have to put every fish thru a treatment just because one has something.

 

[krowleey]

Are you taking the fish right from normal salinity to hypo? I would suggest you have your treatment tank at the same level as your main tank. Get the fish in and then start to lower salinity over the course of a few days.

Hypo in my opinion is a PITA....Make sure you have plenty of makeup water already matched to the 1.008 salinity. You are going to have to change water almost daily. The PH is going to be hard to maintain so make sure you have plenty of arm and hammer baking soda...

i disagree here, you do not have to acclimate fish to lower salinity, just temp and PH, this is done by many people and aquariums. it's the low to high salinity you need to acclimate slow to. I have went from 35ppt to 12ppt instantly with absolutely no problems or extra stress to the fish noticeable.

 

[wooden_reefer]

By doing one you can make sure you are not infecting other fish, you can keep a close eye on that fish
and you can treat each fish as needed and not have to put every fish thru a treatment just because one has something.

In theory you are correct, but there are much extra work in doing so.

In fact, occasionally when I QT multiple fish I also have the same thought but nonetheless conclude that QTing many fish at once is the correct approach for me.

It is correct that contagous diseases are a concern and if you QT one at a time your losses will be limited, but the work is also extra.

If you want to stock just ten fish for a 125 gal, doing so one at a time will take 80 weeks. Too much work for me.

With copper and UV, in general my chances of sometime going wrong are low. If one fish comes down with bacterial infection, I isolate just that fish. Ich is of course not an issue at all.

The great advantage of stocking quickly is that fish incompatibility is reduced. I never overlook this advantage; it can be critical to successful stocking.

A bit minor but still important, stocking quickly is easier to made sure that there will be no mini-cycling. At the end of a cycle, the nitrification bacteria population has peaked and will decline to adjust for the less ammonia after the cycle. There is generally a window of a few weeks when the nitrification capacity is still quite high after a cycle. (If you missed this window, it is also not a bit deal as you can bump up the nitrification capacity at will, but there is more work nonetheless.) This does not apply for those who still practise gradual cycling in stages with livestock, accepting mini-cycling as necessary. The gradual method of "cycling" (with later stages with livestock) should be totally obsolete.

Your LFS will not lose many fish due to diseases if the staffs are good, and an LFS will have to stock many fish at once for a shipment that contains dozens of fish, no choice for an LFS.

 

[wooden_reefer]

And, if ich broke out in an established DT, with many fish some already rather large, then to eradicate ich you have to treat all fish in a QT. So in essense you have to QT many fish at once. No choice here either.

Or you can have many QT's one for each fish in such case.

 

[hybridazn]

are your fish still eating normally? if so i wouldnt panic yet. just keep feeding them while treating with the kick ich and see what happens. most of the time esp. with tangs trying to get them out of the DT and put them in QT is just added stress which isnt good for fish, esp. ones that are already showing signs of illness

 

[wooden_reefer]

are your fish still eating normally? if so i wouldnt panic yet. just keep feeding them while treating with the kick ich and see what happens. most of the time esp. with tangs trying to get them out of the DT and put them in QT is just added stress which isnt good for fish, esp. ones that are already showing signs of illness

If you wait until a fish infested with ich to not feed properly before you treat, it may be too late.

It is critical when you can easily seen ich infestation in a fish more than one or two dots.

 

[hybridazn]

If you wait until a fish infested with ich to not feed properly before you treat, it may be too late.

It is critical when you can easily seen ich infestation in a fish more than one or two dots.

yea i understand that as well, but from my own personal experience of removing a fish to treat for ich and other diseases only cause more stress on the fish and really things take a turn for the worse.

 

[wooden_reefer]

yea i understand that as well, but from my own personal experience of removing a fish to treat for ich and other diseases only cause more stress on the fish and really things take a turn for the worse.

Ich comes and goes on its own for the next wave of attack.

The stress of capture can be reduced. Do not use a net and to chase fish in a tank.

I always bite the bullet. Remove all the rocks and corals or aggregate them at one end of a long tank. I always dim the light and move a large clear plastic bag slowly. The more slowly I move the clear plastic bag the less fish is inclined to flee, it seems. Sometimes a cornered fish would just swim into the bag slowly.

There should be no stress in QT itself. What is the source of stress in QT? A bit small may be but otherwise a QT should add no stress.

The water quality in QT is at least as good as in the DT, frequently. This is true if you do not have concurrent diseases other than ich to deal with. Your QT should have a cycled medium that processes all possible ammonia.