ich on hippo tang

Lanman08 -

Here are some interesting reads on the subject. I hope that you take a look. There is a lot of misinformation out there, especially on a public forum. Many people on this forum have been doing this for a long time. I have kept saltwater fish for 40 years, and I still learn new things all the time. That is why we belong to forums like these. The best I can say is read, read, read, make your own decisions, and then observe.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1846124

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1992196

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2159738
 
asudavew said:
Poor fish.

Maybe do some more research before buying animals?
We all have deaths but it's helpful to know what you are up against before purchasing live animals.

There is so much to learn in this hobby.

Hippo tangs are notorious for carrying ich.
And moving tanks is usually stressful for fish
A double doozy.

Sorry for your loss.
Click to expand...

"Hippo tangs are notorious for carrying ich."

Most fish are notorious for carrying ich.
 
I do agree with pinn on the subject of reading. Don't ever settle on one opnion, put in time and effort. Research and try what sounds good. A lot of options are out there and even more opinions. The good thing is everyone here is willing to share, even if they don't always agree!
 
Even if a fish has no symptoms, it may be carrying ich. I would treat him with whatever proven method you choose to ensure that ich does not make it to your DT.
 
I disagree there whole heartedly! Don't treat just because you fear ich.

The number one cause of ich (or any infection/parasite) is stress. Copper is a massive stress to fish. It is a immune supresive. If they do have it but it's not visible, you guarantee it will develop. The stress of copper also puts the fish in danger of secondary infections. (When you know they ich this risk is outweighed by the treat of ich)

The best defense is a healthy unstressed fish that is eating. If you see sign then treat. Ich is rough but if you treat just cause, you put massive stress on the fish.

Its up to you ultimately. But they call it a quarantine tank for a reason. You QT and observe. Otherwise it would be a treatment (and stress)tank.
 
bryn.sessums1 said:
I disagree there whole heartedly! Don't treat just because you fear ich.

The number one cause of ich (or any infection/parasite) is stress. Copper is a massive stress to fish. It is a immune supresive. If they do have it but it's not visible, you guarantee it will develop. The stress of copper also puts the fish in danger of secondary infections. (When you know they ich this risk is outweighed by the treat of ich)

The best defense is a healthy unstressed fish that is eating. If you see sign then treat. Ich is rough but if you treat just cause, you put massive stress on the fish.

Its up to you ultimately. But they call it a quarantine tank for a reason. You QT and observe. Otherwise it would be a treatment (and stress)tank.
Click to expand...

The only cause of ich is ich and the 5 walls of a tank.

Stress is extra and non essential. Nutrition is important for other diseases and have little to do with ich.

There is nothing stressful about eradicating ich as a part of disease control and adaptation, at least any stress is manageble and worthwhile.
 
I didn't say stress magically creates ich, that is foolish. Stress is what makes the fish more likely to not fight off the parasite on its own.

Let's not be silly
 
bryn.sessums1 said:
I didn't say stress magically creates ich, that is foolish. Stress is what makes the fish more likely to not fight off the parasite on its own.

Let's not be silly
Click to expand...

I am saying that stress has zero to do with whether a fish shows and suffers from ich.

Fish has no practical effective defense against ich in a tank because a tank is a closed system. Ich infestation is basically math.

First, in the ocean fish does not have to vary defense in order to fight ich more effciently under varing consitions because ich leaves on its own design as a lifecycle. The chance of heavy infestation is very small and thus improving defense/fight is NOT the characteristic relationship between ich and fish. Fish certainly has defense but the variation of such defense has no reason to occur quickly because such is not the relation in the ocean.

Second, the lifecycle of ich makes improving defense difficult. Ich attack comes in waves. Moderate infestation can become very saturated in one or more generations of lifecycle. The number will be so great that no improvement in defense could possibly deter.
 
The 5 wall effect dominates over another disease to make stress or health of the tank irrelevant. Such disease can spread quickly in a "heathy and stable" tank.

The most common (outside ich) is external pathogenic bacteria to which a fish has no previous exposure.

It was said that the Greenbay Packers lost a playoff game due to widespread flu in the team. Were the Greenbay Packers healthy?

Does one have to be stressed to get a flu? No

Whether a person or a fish gets sick when expose to a bacteria to whom one has no previous exposure depends also on the concentration of the pathogen.

The whole idea of stress and nutrition to fight diseases in a tank is misleading. Of course stress and nutrition matter, but the extent to which this is helpful is overrated and misleading to the newbie at least.

No matter how good water chemcial quality is, no matter how good nutrition is, a tank is still 5 walls. The closed nature of the tank still exerts profound influence on a tank pathogenically. The tank is where pathogens can be very concentrated.

Bacteria is different from ich; bacteria and fish do struggle and antibodies (improving immunity) is a key factor against bacteria, but not for ich.
 
Last edited:
thanks for the help guys.

Back to the original topic- I have not added any copper to the tank. The tang does seem to show some stress though- im assuming this is from the transport overnight and being in a new tank. He is hiding some.

I assume I will monitor his behavior and if ich develops then I will treat. He has not eaten yet.

should i be worried? His coloration is pale-r looking, from stress i assume
 
Again, try some reading. Take it from someone with a degree in environmental microbiology from USF.

Stress matters more than you know. That's why the best treatments for ich have nothing to do with copper. Copper is easy and popular. Study the life cycle or the organism. Hypo salinity or tank transfer is the best way to beat marine ich(it's too labor intensive for most).
 
i did reading this afternoon, thanks. I just was wondering if i should be concerned that he is stressed out in the QT tank. he has been hiding and not swimming around. I guess ill assume its because he has been trasnferred around a lot in the last day
 
bryn.sessums1 said:
I disagree there whole heartedly! Don't treat just because you fear ich.

The number one cause of ich (or any infection/parasite) is stress. Really? Stress is NEVER the causative agent for any infectious disease. Cryptocaryon irritans is the only cause of marine ich.


Copper is a massive stress to fish. It is a immune supresive. This is true for a chelated copper compound like CuSO4. An ionic copper medication like Cupramine is much more gentle with even touchy/finicky fish.

If they do have it but it's not visible, you guarantee it will develop. What does this even mean? If they have it, then they have it- invisible or not. It will not "develop" if they already have it.


The stress of copper also puts the fish in danger of secondary infections. (When you know they ich this risk is outweighed by the treat of ich)

Again, non-chelated copper compounds are safe and effective and do not pose the same risks as chelated versions.

The best defense is a healthy unstressed fish that is eating. If you see sign then treat. Ich is rough but if you treat just cause, you put massive stress on the fish.

I completely agree with the importance of a stress-free environment and an adequate, nutritious diet. I think most expert aquarists would say the best defense against any aquarium pathogen is a strict quarantine period for all macroorganisms and a prophylactic treatment plan with well-known and proven procedures and medications.


Its up to you ultimately. But they call it a quarantine tank for a reason. You QT and observe. Otherwise it would be a treatment (and stress)tank.
Click to expand...

It is absolutely up to the aquarist to determine the best course of action. I happen to personally believe that the best course of action is to eliminate introductions of pathogens to my display tanks as much as possible. There are countless threads here (and on other forums) lamenting the introduction of Cryptocaryon into a display after a period of "quarantine" where no preventative treatment was given. "Normal acting" fish commonly have subclincal infections.
 
reeferstace said:
It is absolutely up to the aquarist to determine the best course of action. I happen to personally believe that the best course of action is to eliminate introductions of pathogens to my display tanks as much as possible. There are countless threads here (and on other forums) lamenting the introduction of Cryptocaryon into a display after a period of "quarantine" where no preventative treatment was given. "Normal acting" fish commonly have subclincal infections.
Click to expand...
True, but most quarantines in the those cases are 2-3 weeks. That is no where near long enough to see a full life cycle. If QT is done correctly, 60 day minimum, not treatment is ever needed as a just in case. Some strains of crypto can have life cycles over 40 days. A 3 week or 4 week QT would not prevent anything in those cases.

I always do QT for fish 90 days, and the first 30 of that being hypo salinity.

A proper QT will insure nothing ever makes it into the diaplay. It can be done, we must understand the life cycle and needs of the parasite.
 
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