Ich problem- BB vs Sand bed

[Manicosi]

Recently I had a flatworm infestation that I decided to fix using Flatworm exit. I did my research and using this treatment and realized that it was the death of the flatworms that poisons the tank and not the treatment itself. So in order to kill as many of these pests as possible without contaminating my water, decided that the best thing to do is remove all rock and corals from the DT and run the first dose of meds in a rubbermaid, that way all of the dead flatworms would not contaminate the DT. I then replaced everything back in the tank and dosed the DT in order to kill all of the flatworms that were left behind (I siphoned as many as I could as well). Well the outcome on killing the flatworms with no losses couldn't of been better but now I am stuck with an even deadlier pest, Ich. I guess, the stress of the whole project on the fish was just to much.
I have been researching Ich for the past week now and I understand that the only way to completely eradicate this parasite is through copper, hypo, or tank transfer. Upon researching the parasite life cycle I realized that after a period of infecting the fish the parasite drops off and reproduces in the sand. Since my fish were very healthy and VISUALLY ich free before the extraction of the rock (some of which has been buried half way in the sand for over a year and a half) did I somehow unknowingly help generate this ich by disturbing the sand bed? Also, I wanted to see if any one has any info/experience with ich in both bare bottom tanks vs tanks with a sand bed? Trying to think logically about it, if the ich cannot drop into the sand where it can safely reproduce then having a bare bottom might help to limit the severity of a ich infestation. I fully realize that ich can infest both of these options but is the severity of the infestation reduced by simply having a BB tank vs a tank with a sand bed? All responses/opinions are welcome, but real life experience is hard to argue with. If you are looking to criticize another persons opinion/views please go elsewhere. Thanks Mike

 

[jamesbaur13]

I'm not experienced with bare bottom, nor would I consider myself an experienced reefkeeper.

I'm sure your going to hear quite a few recommend you leave the display go fallow and fully eradicate the pest. I agree with them... this is the best way of ensuring your fish stay healthy and pest free.

I wouldn't think just having the tank bare bottom is enough... they'd still attach to any other surface which is wet.

For it to really work you'd have to scrub all surfaces that are in contact with water... as many as you can. You would need to do this in conjunction with UV, provided the tank has enough flow to keep the ich suspended in the water column and the unit is sized properly. With sand this would be impossible (you'd go insane scrubbing each and every grain), but with bare bottom I'd think you could reduce the severity of the outbreak when it starts to happen.

Anyways, just my logic/opinion... keep in mind I'm usually more wrong in these matters than right.

 

[Manicosi]

What would be the potential downside of just removing all corals and inverts and doing hypo in the DT? The tank is a 180 gallon with about 200+ lbs of rock, so the fish would be practically impossible to catch without taking this rock out first. I am just trying to do what ever I possibly can to reduce the amount of stress on the fish.
After I complete one of the 3 methods proven to kill ich, would removing the sand help to reduce the severity of future outbreaks if they ever occur again?

 

[Manicosi]

plus in order to properly QT all of the fish I would have to set up tanks all over the house and that would not go over so well with the misses.

 

[Mytola]

What would be the potential downside of just removing all corals and inverts and doing hypo in the DT? The tank is a 180 gallon with about 200+ lbs of rock, so the fish would be practically impossible to catch without taking this rock out first. I am just trying to do what ever I possibly can to reduce the amount of stress on the fish.
After I complete one of the 3 methods proven to kill ich, would removing the sand help to reduce the severity of future outbreaks if they ever occur again?

You will kill the nitrifying bacteria in your sandbed and rock if you do hypo in the DT, which will set off a huge ammonia spike. Not really a good thing, especially not for already weakened fish.

 

[sandwi54]

You will kill the nitrifying bacteria in your sandbed and rock if you do hypo in the DT, which will set off a huge ammonia spike. Not really a good thing, especially not for already weakened fish.

Nitrifying bacteria will not be affected by hypo. the reason why there's usually an ammonia spike when with DT hypo is that hypo kills all of the critters living in the LR (but not the bacteria), and all of the die off raises the ammonia level.

 

[Manicosi]

So after hypo is performed, should the sand bed be removed or is there no evidence that a bare bottom helps in any way to control the severity of potential outbreaks? Thanks for the responses.

 

[Jdbrine]

nitrifying bacteria will not be affected by hypo. The reason why there's usually an ammonia spike when with dt hypo is that hypo kills all of the critters living in the lr (but not the bacteria), and all of the die off raises the ammonia level.

+1

 

[MrTuskfish]

I really don't think "severity" belongs in a discussion of ich. The tank/fish either have ich or they don't. Just a couple of parasites can turn into thousands in very little time. BTW, UV will not cure or prevent ich. Its a great water clarifier and will eliminate a few ich theronts; but (IMO & IME) isn't enough help with ich to warrant the expense and maintainence time.

 

[Manicosi]

I really don't think "severity" belongs in a discussion of ich. The tank/fish either have ich or they don't. Just a couple of parasites can turn into thousands in very little time. BTW, UV will not cure or prevent ich. Its a great water clarifier and will eliminate a few ich theronts; but (IMO & IME) isn't enough help with ich to warrant the expense and maintainence time.

With all do respect, I agree with you to a certain extent. If you have an ich problem than you must perform one of the three proven methods to exterminate your pest but IMO, severity of the infestation can make a difference between the fish living and dying. I have seen cases in the past of such a severe infestation that I dont care which method you try and use it is just to late. It is very hard to 100% determine if this pest is truely gone from your system if it is not in its host form. If not having a sand bed limits the reproduction of the parasite (thus limiting the severity) in any way, this extra time that it would provide to correctly diagnose and treat could easily be the difference between life and death for your fish. This is just from my experience.

 

[sandwi54]

With all do respect, I agree with you to a certain extent. If you have an ich problem than you must perform one of the three proven methods to exterminate your pest but IMO, severity of the infestation can make a difference between the fish living and dying. I have seen cases in the past of such a severe infestation that I dont care which method you try and use it is just to late. It is very hard to 100% determine if this pest is truely gone from your system if it is not in its host form. If not having a sand bed limits the reproduction of the parasite (thus limiting the severity) in any way, this extra time that it would provide to correctly diagnose and treat could easily be the difference between life and death for your fish. This is just from my experience.

can you really not set up a QT? Petco has the $1 per gallon deal right now and you can pick up a 55 gallon tank for $60. You can also leave the QT in the garage during the treatment. If you really cannot set up a QT, then hypoing the DT is fine. I would recommend that you remove all of the sand if possible, as sand provides a safe harbor for ich. I suspect many DT hypo fail because of the presence of sand.

 

[MrTuskfish]

With all do respect, I agree with you to a certain extent. If you have an ich problem than you must perform one of the three proven methods to exterminate your pest but IMO, severity of the infestation can make a difference between the fish living and dying. I have seen cases in the past of such a severe infestation that I dont care which method you try and use it is just to late. It is very hard to 100% determine if this pest is truely gone from your system if it is not in its host form. If not having a sand bed limits the reproduction of the parasite (thus limiting the severity) in any way, this extra time that it would provide to correctly diagnose and treat could easily be the difference between life and death for your fish. This is just from my experience.

True. My comment was aimed at the common idea that its OK to "manage" a small infestation, rather than deal with it.

 

[MrTuskfish]

can you really not set up a QT? Petco has the $1 per gallon deal right now and you can pick up a 55 gallon tank for $60. You can also leave the QT in the garage during the treatment. If you really cannot set up a QT, then hypoing the DT is fine. I would recommend that you remove all of the sand if possible, as sand provides a safe harbor for ich. I suspect many DT hypo fail because of the presence of sand.

Just curious, I seldom use hypo and always bare bottom. Why would the sand protect the ich? Does sand provide tiny pockets of the old, higher SG water? Hypo just kills the theronts; and they have to emerge from the sand----wouldn't the sudden change in SG burst them? Maybe a theront can make it from a pocket of water in the sand to a sleeping fish on the substrate without seeing the effects of hypo?

 

[sandwi54]

Just curious, I seldom use hypo and always bare bottom. Why would the sand protect the ich? Does sand provide tiny pockets of the old, higher SG water? Hypo just kills the theronts; and they have to emerge from the sand----wouldn't the sudden change in SG burst them? Maybe a theront can make it from a pocket of water in the sand to a sleeping fish on the substrate without seeing the effects of hypo?

I have a good explanation for this (I think). Unlike copper, hypo does not necessarily kill a theront the moment it emerges, but rather places stress on it so that it explodes. How long it takes a theront to succumb is a function of its own health and environmental factors. Just like fish, a parasite can withstand "stress" if it's healthy.

I have repeatedly noticed people failing to eliminate ich while performing DT hypo with sand. My theory is that when trophonts leave the fish, they find the sand and are able to burrow into it and be protected. They reproduce and at night, the new theronts emerge and can find fish hosts very fast (since fish sleep close to the substrate) before they are exploded by hypo.

However, keeping the tank barebottom removes the safe harbor that the tomontes need to keep themselves close to the fish hosts. When the tank is barebottom and with good circulation, the tomontes are more likely to be blown around and kept farther away from fish hosts, and I'm also sure that being blown around has an effect on ich's ability to reproduce well.

Copper does the same thing as hypo by stressing (or poisoning in this case) it to death, but at a faster rate if the dosage is high.

 

[Manicosi]

can you really not set up a QT? Petco has the $1 per gallon deal right now and you can pick up a 55 gallon tank for $60. You can also leave the QT in the garage during the treatment. If you really cannot set up a QT, then hypoing the DT is fine. I would recommend that you remove all of the sand if possible, as sand provides a safe harbor for ich. I suspect many DT hypo fail because of the presence of sand.

Sandwi54, space is definietly a problem for me considering that I live in a high rise condo in downtown where I do not have the luxury of a garage where I can keep several QT tanks. Does anyone have experience with treating Ich in both BB and Sand bed tanks? Is the treatment time reduced by not having sand in the tank?

 

[sandwi54]

Sandwi54, space is definietly a problem for me considering that I live in a high rise condo in downtown where I do not have the luxury of a garage where I can keep several QT tanks. Does anyone have experience with treating Ich in both BB and Sand bed tanks? Is the treatment time reduced by not having sand in the tank?

I have experience treating in both BB and sandbed tanks. From my experience, the problem with the sandbed is that it will either work or it will not, no matter how long the treatment is. Treating in BB has always worked for me though.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I have a good explanation for this (I think). Unlike copper, hypo does not necessarily kill a theront the moment it emerges, but rather places stress on it so that it explodes. How long it takes a theront to succumb is a function of its own health and environmental factors. Just like fish, a parasite can withstand "stress" if it's healthy.

I have repeatedly noticed people failing to eliminate ich while performing DT hypo with sand. My theory is that when trophonts leave the fish, they find the sand and are able to burrow into it and be protected. They reproduce and at night, the new theronts emerge and can find fish hosts very fast (since fish sleep close to the substrate) before they are exploded by hypo.

However, keeping the tank barebottom removes the safe harbor that the tomontes need to keep themselves close to the fish hosts. When the tank is barebottom and with good circulation, the tomontes are more likely to be blown around and kept farther away from fish hosts, and I'm also sure that being blown around has an effect on ich's ability to reproduce well.

Copper does the same thing as hypo by stressing (or poisoning in this case) it to death, but at a faster rate if the dosage is high.

That's about what I was thinking. I think copper will kill a theront with ANY exposure to effective Cu levels.

 

[Manicosi]

I have a good explanation for this (I think). Unlike copper, hypo does not necessarily kill a theront the moment it emerges, but rather places stress on it so that it explodes. How long it takes a theront to succumb is a function of its own health and environmental factors. Just like fish, a parasite can withstand "stress" if it's healthy.

I have repeatedly noticed people failing to eliminate ich while performing DT hypo with sand. My theory is that when trophonts leave the fish, they find the sand and are able to burrow into it and be protected. They reproduce and at night, the new theronts emerge and can find fish hosts very fast (since fish sleep close to the substrate) before they are exploded by hypo.

However, keeping the tank barebottom removes the safe harbor that the tomontes need to keep themselves close to the fish hosts. When the tank is barebottom and with good circulation, the tomontes are more likely to be blown around and kept farther away from fish hosts, and I'm also sure that being blown around has an effect on ich's ability to reproduce well.

Copper does the same thing as hypo by stressing (or poisoning in this case) it to death, but at a faster rate if the dosage is high.

Sandwi54, thank you for your response, the sand bed will be removed while the hypo is performed. I can always replace the sand at a later time if necessary.