Ich Recurrence?

[TWallace]

I've got a coral beauty that's been in quarantine for a little over a month now. It originally had ich. I successfully treated that with hyposalinity and was set to get it into my display tank this week. But last week the white spots came back. They look larger than ich spots to me, and the SG had been steady at 1.009. Prior to the spots recurring, I increased the SG a bit in anticipation of getting it ready to move to my display tank. It was up to 1.014, but the spots quickly spread when I did that. I've since lowered it down to 1.008. I've also got a UV sterilizer on the QT now, so ich should have an extremely difficult time surviving. Here are some pics taken today:

There was a sick clownfish in the tank with him weeks ago which I strongly suspect had brooklynella (it died from it). I have dipped the CB 3 times in the last few days with formalin just to be on the safe side. I noticed a discolored spot on the fish just behind the eye, which looked like it could either be HLLE or brooklynella.

I'm worried that it may not be ich that he has, due to the size of the spots and the fact that it survived the hyposalinity and UV sterilizer. You can't really tell from the pics, but some of the spots look noticably larger than normal ich spots that he previously had.

Is there anything else I should be doing? The fish is still behaving normally, swimming around, hides when I move around outside the tank, eats well, normal respiration, etc.

 

[leebca]

There are a few unclear things about your experience. Please forgive me if I 'get it wrong' or 'don't have it right.'

From the photos, I'd say you fish has Marine Ich. But this diagnosis isn't a guarantee.

If the CB was alone throughout its hyposalinity treatment, then that treatment could not have been properly performed if you kept it in hypo for "a little over a month" as you posted.

The proper procedure for a hyposalinity treatment on a fish with Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) is to lower the salinity (two or three days), to the treatment salinity, and then watch the fish. When you see no more signs of Marine Ich (MI), then you hold the fish in quarantine, at the low salinity for preferably 6 more weeks. If you see any signs of MI during this time, you start the clock over. You're looking for 6 weeks of no-MI signs.

Then, you slowly raise the salinity. This would take another week. After this, you hold the fish in quarantine 4 more weeks to verify that your fish is MI-free. When the salinity was raised, based upon the above recommendation, the time spent now is no less than 8 weeks (not the little more than a month you reported) assuming the fish lost its signs of MI within a few days of when the treatment began.

I don't see from your post that this was the procedure you used.

If any fish was put into the QT with the CB during its treatment, you'd have to assume your 6-week clock of MI-symptom free to start over. If the CB was put into the QT with a fish that was already there, then you have to treat the CB for the condition(s) of the fish that was there AND begin to treat it for another disease when the MI showed up. This is why it is generally not recommended to try to put two or more fishes through QT at the same time, unless you're an advanced aquarist, experienced, and/or knowledgeable about fish diseases and treatments.

So, when you began to raise the salinity in your QT, you were doing that too soon. You saw the effects. You are back to ground zero in the treatment. If you still want to use hyposalinity, you have to start again (see above procedure). Do not add any fish or specimens to the QT tank during this process.

Regarding the UV sterilizer --- it does not cure MI as I can see you know from your post. It will only effect free-swimming parasites in the water column that actually pass through the UV unit. The use of UV may help manage large blooms of the parasite, but it won't remove it from your QT.

If you want to facilitate the hyposalinity treatment, you should vacuum all QT surfaces twice a day. At lights on and at lights off (dawn and dusk). This helps get the 'cyst' stage of the parasite out of the tank. The use of UV is helpful and together with the vacuuming and UV and hyposalinity, you'll lick the parasite!

All anemonefishes should be treated for Brooklynella when the aquarist first acquires the fish. Brooklynella is so prevalent amongst anemonefishes, that these fish should be treated for this, as a matter of routine. But, handle one fish at a time through QT and be patient.

I hope I've been helpful without being too stupid!

 

[zens]

I'd put the fish in 1.008-1.009 at once. No need to slowly aclimate.

 

[TWallace]

Thanks for the replies, both of you. Last night I gave the CB a dip in freshwater (same pH and temp as QT tank water) with formalin and an airstone for 3 minutes. My reasoning was that I suspected it may be velvet at the time. I read up on velvet treatment and saw that FW dips would get some of the spots to drop off. Many of the spots did indeed drop off and he shows significantly fewer spots today, though some still remain. I also know that hypo does nothing to velvet.

Does ich respond to FW dips? I was under the impression it does not, as it's burrowed in too deeply on the fish to be affected by water conditions over short periods, and it's only the free swimming stage that is killed by hypo, copper, uv, etc., which is why it takes several days for any of those to show progress.

Lee, the CB was initially put into QT at the same time as the clownfish. In the future, I will be doing single fish in most circumstances (possibly doing two clowns at a time to prevent both turning female, not sure how long that sex change takes for clowns).

The CB was put into QT around 3/22. I reduced SG over the course of a day and a half (too quick I know now, and the CB nearly died as a result, but I learned my lesson). After roughly six days of hypo, all signs of ich were gone on him, and that's when I started the timer (4 weeks originally, but now I see it should be 6 weeks, and for good reason given my experience with this fish).

Does your advice on treating all anemonefishes for brook apply to tank raised as well? I had read that it's only the wild caught ones that commonly have it.

I'm a little conflicted on what the fish actually has. I'm hoping it's ich, as that seems easier to treat than velvet (I have an aversion to using copper). But given that several spots dropped off the fish after the FW dip, that doesn't sound like ich.

Thanks so much for all your help.

 

[leebca]

I'd stick with the the Marine Ich diagnosis. Because:

With Marine Velvet, you shouldn't actually see any spots. They are so small, like powdered sugar, that the fish would look dusted and you wouldn't see individual spots. Generally, when Marine Velvet has progressed to the point of where the parasites are visible on the fish, the fish is within a few days of dying.

Marine Ich can drop off from a FW dip IF the parasites are on the surface and exposed to the water. Usually they are under the fish's mucous layer and protected from the FW. That is why they usually don't drop/come off in a FW dip.

All last year I was advising aquarists to treat their anemonefish for Brooklynella except if they were tank bred. But Steven Pro is conservative and suggested that all anemonefish be treated. I don't remember his reasoning, but I trust him enough to follow his suggestion. So, all this year I have been recommended treating all: tank bred, tank raised, and wild.

There is some reasonable suspicion that Brooklynella is on/in the fish much like our human cold virus. Thus, like our virus, the Brook is just waiting for the opportunity to express itself. If this is true, then the treating of all fish likely to carry it would reduce the chances of it getting into your display.

It's easy to miss that one, single, spot on the fish. You really have to look over the fish closely and thoroughly no less than once a day during treatment. It's a challenge, but the pay off is a healthy fish, no longer stressed by the attack.

Some aquarists forget that a sick fish is a suffering fish, even if it seems to be eating well and 'happy.' So the aquarists takes the chance to see if the fish will live, and the fish takes the stress of being sick until it struggles to health on its own or dies.

I'd continue to treat for Marine Ich. Like I wrote above, if it was Marine Velvet, I'd suspect the fish to have died by now.
:rollface:

 

[TWallace]

Alright Lee, thanks for the advice. I'll stick with the assumption that it's just ich and continue the hypo. I guess the SG may have slipped above 1.009 just long enough at some point to keep the parasite alive. I've dropped it down to 1.008 this time and plan on keeping it there and will monitor it closer.

 

[leebca]

At the low specific gravity (which I like) watch pH daily, too.

 

[Steven Pro]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7298182#post7298182 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by leebca
All last year I was advising aquarists to treat their anemonefish for Brooklynella except if they were tank bred. But Steven Pro is conservative and suggested that all anemonefish be treated. I don't remember his reasoning, but I trust him enough to follow his suggestion. So, all this year I have been recommended treating all: tank bred, tank raised, and wild.

Too many dealers mix and match wild-caught with captive raised, thus exposing both to this parasite.

 

[TWallace]

Tonight I found the CB stuck to the overflow of the QT. I turned the pump off and he swam away. It's pretty low flow so I know he has to be quite weak to not be able to swim away from it. He was breathing pretty fast once I got him loose, but that's probably just from exhaustion. I rechecked the pH and SG, they're at 8.1 and 1.009. I added some top off water to get it back to 1.008.

 

[leebca]

Consider the overflow event, you should have either: Pro Tech Coat Marine or StressGuard on hand, or go ahead and give it a treatment of either, now.