Ich today, gone tomorrow?

[Vilas]

Hi!
Well, I screwed up.
I went out and got myself a purple tang for my new 320. I had him in qt, but the tank is small, and he is big and flighty, and felt bad for him after a week. The LFS had him for three weeks and they dose copper, so I deluded myself I to thinking it would be fiiiiiine.
Wrong-o!! A few days after being added, he came out with spots. About ten one evening. I panicked. The qt is a million times too small to hold all ten of the rest of my fish plus him. I simply can't afford to buy a bigger qt - we don't have Petco and their dollar a gallon sales, and this new tank drained even my grocery budget. (OK, worth it, who needs luxuries like coffee?!)

The next day, he had four spots. I know that they come out more in the evening, so I looked then. He was eating like a pig the whole time, I kept the lights off for most of the day - and the spots kind of went. Day 3, you'd never have known anything happened. None of my other fish were effected.

So, I clearly have it in my system. Maybe it was lurking before, maybe he brought it in. It seems to be managed for now, but I'm not dumb enough to call it gone. I know that the next stressful power outage or new fish may just trigger a massive outbreak.

I'm feeding garlic, not adding squat, minimising use of lights, and just trying to keep stress low and the tank stable. What would you do? How would you handle it?

I think this is my last tang. I got brave, and will do all I can for him, but little cardinals and firefish seem to be so much better choices right now. I have been doing so well, zero disease or fish losses, and was so proud of myself. How humbling! Big heads clearly lead to sick fish.

 

[Vilas]

Oh - I already sold my old 63g tank, as I was offered more than I paid for the new one!

 

[Sk8r]

OK. You've got it in the tank, but nobody's dying. Ich strains seem to vary in virulence for reasons which experts discuss. Let's hope you've got a wimpy one, since you're between a rock and a hard place. First, get the water parameters to resemble mine in my sig line: that's balanced for LPS corals, and it works for a general application. Keep it that way--test daily for the next couple of weeks until you've got everything steady. Go on feeding garlic: it's at least an appetite stimulant, and there's a faint possibility it aids slime coat, which is a natural defense fish have against this pest. And, that said, don't get any other fish for 12 weeks AFTER the last sighting of an ich-pimple on any fish in that tank. Fingers crossed for you. Just feed, keep the water clean and steady, keep the whole tank rock-steady in every respect, and don't mess with any miracle cures or tonics.

 

[oscarinw]

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

The wise advice can only be, fallow your system, take out the fish, treat with copper or TTM.

The less wise will say try to continue with low stress, try some of the esoteric measures such as garlic and ginger.

The choice is yours my friend.

Nonetheless, I wish you a magical disapparition of ich or a mis-diagnose on your side.

Heppy reefing!

 

[GT350pwns]

My flame angel had some ick about a week after going.into the dt. With low stress and good nutrition, there has yet to be another outbreak and no other fish have ever shown any signs (albeit, I know they can have it and not be symptomatic). but, Everyone Seems Happy and Very healthy.

Will definitely re-qt everything when I have the ability to upgrade the tank.

 

[gone fishin]

I would go with fallow and TTM. Can you get some tubs in lieu of a regular tank? How many fish do you have? You have learned an important lesson bigger the tank the bigger the potential headache. Do not compromise your QT regimen.

 

[Sk8r]

This is the sort of dilemma you get into if you get ich into a really big tank, where fish are too many or too large for ordinary measures. By keeping water quality up, keeping slime coats in good shape, and crossing your fingers it's minor---you stand a chance of getting through it, but it's a dice throw only made reasonable by the fact that you can't qt a lot of large fish in too little space---which is even more likely to impact their health. So you're left with the unhappy choice of waiting for disaster and hoping that they can throw it off. You wait for the thing to run its course. And I recommend reading the sticky on the ich life cycle, and how it works. If you have not seen it manifest for 12 weeks you are reasonably ok to assume it's not there, because if it has not reproduced successfully (a fish is required) in that time, it is probably defunct. This is NOT a call to rush out in the 12th week and get a particularly susceptible fish like a tang, angel, or rabbit (some of the worst)---no. This is the point at which, reasonably sure you're going to have a tank to put said fish in, you get a nice fairly resistent goby or blenny and put him in quarantine for four whole weeks, put him in, and go on observing. That's a total of 16 weeks before putting another fish in. And it will be a full 20 weeks total before any other fish passes quarantine and goes in. The more time that elapses since any appearance of the problem, the more you can believe it's gone. Any recurrence resets the 'wait' clock to 12 weeks.

This is NOT the best treatment, because it risks losing every fish in the tank. If you do---you then wait 12 weeks, and put a fish in quarantine. Not optimum. But this is why qt is particularly important for very large tanks.

 

[davidfrances]

I had the following fish in one of my 250G DT:

Pajama Cardinal (5)
Harlequin Tusk
Majestic Angel
Maroon Clown
Sailfin Tang
Blue Ring Angel
Red Coris Wrasse
Emperor Angel
Midas Blenny
Powder Blue Tang
Coral Beauty
Eibli Angel
Passer Angel
Marine Betta
Two Barred Rabbitfish
One Spot Foxface
Bluelip Bristletooth Tang

All summer long I battled toxic dinoflagellates in this tank. The dino's eventually killed all my soft corals, and it appeared the toxin levels in the tank eventually wore down my fish, and they all contacted ich.

I was faced with the same dilemma, large fish and my QT is only 40G's. I did have a lot of old canister filters, so, I used the canisters to vacuum the mulm & sludge from the sump of my other 250G DT. I did this to jump start a biofilter in each canister. I also had three (3) 35G Brute trash cans that I use for water changes, RODI, etc.

I tore the dino afflicted DT down, and divided the fish between my 40G QT and the three Brute containers. I ran a canister filter on each Brute, and tested the water twice daily for ammonia and nitrite. I also ran heaters on all the Brutes.

I also treated ALL the fish to a cupramine treatment. I tested twice daily to maintain copper levels.

I nuked the dino infested DT. I bleached, then acid washed the base rock. I replaced all the sand. When I re-assembled the tank, I ran it for a week with a strong 10% bleach solution. Then I rinsed it with RODI three times and added a dechlorinator to neutralize residual bleach. Then I cycled with liquid ammonia.

Everyone on this site gave me grief for using the Brute containers as emergency treatment and holding tanks. They claimed I would be unable to keep up with the ammonia cycle and copper levels. I also got grief over using copper on angels, tangs and wrasses (most people instructed me to use the TTM). In the end, it was a PITA, but it worked. I was doing daily water changes, babysitting cranky canister filters, and trying to observe the fish through the surface of the water.

I share this with you because I had a large tank, with large fish, and the Tank Transfer Method was impractical for me. All my fish lived through the cupramine treatment, especially the tangs, angels and wrasses. I think if you looked hard enough in SA, you could source the Brute trash cans or a large Rubbermaid stock tank, and run a canister filter until your DT makes it through the fallow period.

And by the way, my tank and fish after the above disaster:

The dino affected tank is the one on the right.

Sadly, I did lose one fish. My HT jumped out when I wasn't paying attention and he died on the floor.

 

[davidfrances]

FWIW, I also feel that you do need to let your DT go fallow for the recommended time period. It is true that some fish will develop a resistance to ich. Unfortunately, once you reach that state of equilibrium, you run the risk of ich reappearing when you add a new fish.

The only proven methods to eradicate ich are hypo salinity, TTM, and copper treatment. Everything else is snake oil, IMHO.

 

[Sk8r]

We are not talking about resistence here, except that some species have a better resistence due to heavy slime coat. We are talking about waiting it out because there is no available room to qt all fish at once.

 

[gone fishin]

If my memory serves, Big if, the OP has not had this tank up very long. So it may not have many or very large fish. I suppose we will find out when we get back on South Africa time :lol:

 

[davidfrances]

We are not talking about resistence here, except that some species have a better resistence due to heavy slime coat. We are talking about waiting it out because there is no available room to qt all fish at once.

Irresponsible. The OP should be advised to find solutions and make room. The monetary cost of doing so is only marginally greater than the cost of one fish.

Waiting it out is akin to pointing a loaded gun at every new fish added to the DT in the future.

 

[Sk8r]

READ the posts.

 

[davidfrances]

READ the posts.

Not trying to pick a fight. Your advice is irresponsible and does not encourage good husbandry. You advised the OP to wait it out in his DT. Ich will not go away on its own. READ the numerous stickies on ich.

You are dooming him and his DT to a cycle of failure.

 

[davidfrances]

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I"”
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

The wise advice can only be, fallow your system, take out the fish, treat with copper or TTM.

The less wise will say try to continue with low stress, try some of the esoteric measures such as garlic and ginger.

The choice is yours my friend.

Nonetheless, I wish you a magical disapparition of ich or a mis-diagnose on your side.

Heppy reefing!

This reminds me of a quote from Lt Worf from "Star Trek: The Next Generation: The Emissary (#2.20)" (1989)

[in order to accustom a rather suspicious Captain K'Temoc to the 24th century, Worf poses as Captain of the Enterprise]

Lieutenant Worf: Captain, as you are new to this century, I have tried to be patient. But I will tolerate no further insubordination. Drop your shields, immediately!

Capt. K'Temoc: And if I refuse?

Lieutenant Worf: Then die in ignorance. I can waste no more time on you.

 

[Vilas]

Thanks for the advice.
I am only too aware of the risks - ten years ago, I was stupid, lost a load of fish to velvet, and swore never again.
I do indeed have a new tank - I have my stock from my old setup in, however. Ten fish total, mostly small. Save the tang, the biggest fish is a juv pygmy angel - not even 2" long. As my plan with my old setup (63g) was to only stock small fish, my QT is a yen gallon special. No problem for the standard one small fish at a time, huge issue for eleven fish including a purple tang.

I can indeed find trash cans - and probably stretch my budget to get one if really really need be. Things are imported here, and prices on certain things are disproportionate. Labor is cheap, fancy imported trash cans aren't. Wouldn't I need a food grade item? Some of the cheap Chinese plastic trash cans might be an option, but the grade of stuff shipped to Africa to be sold cheaply is pretty low.

If possible, I'm going to try the super risky road of just not adding a darned grain of sand for a few months, and focus on keeping the tank rock stable.
This may all be futile - we may be forced to move (!!!!!) And I may just have to sell the tang back and qt everything else. I won't put a beautiful fish like that at risk of certain death with the stress of a tank move, even if it is only across town. There are simply too many variables.
My thought is that ich had already been present, just not apparent. This fish had been treated with copper for weeks, then spot free in a silly little 10g for a week. It must have come in some other way.
But I suppose it doesn't matter one jot how it got in, the point is that it is present. Unless I misdiagnosed, which is possible. However possible, it is irresponsible to stake any hopes on that, I'm sure you all agree.

We find out in a week or two if we have to move. I'm also 8 months pregnant, so moving + a toddler + a newborn + a sick tank is simply too much. I'd rather use the move as a way of catching the fish and returning him.

Thanks for the understanding, sk8tr, and for the gentle ways you once again use to correct people. Not everyone has an ideal setup. And yes, big tanks come with even bigger problems.

I will do my best to arrange a suitable qt. And in the meantime, just try to focus on as stellar husbandry as I am capable of.

 

[Vilas]

Also - a trash can might be an option, but a canister filter is a fancy imported device with eye watering prices.
If I wasn't heavily pregnant, I could go to the sea daily with a 100l jerry can and do a water change. At this point, though, tying my shoes is an effort that involves catching my breath afterwards! And it won't get easier after my c section, physically or financially.
My husband has grown to be as tank obsessed as I am, but he works long hours, and I can't ask him to go to the beach daily with a jerry can for my tank.

 

[gone fishin]

I certainly hope everything works out for the best. Tank related and personal wise. I never gave much thought to things being imported and prices.

 

[Vilas]

Different world here! Corals can be free in tide pools, but a hob filter is pricey, and our salaries are low. Part of it is that a fish tank is an item for the "rich" - similarly with car seats and things, the majority of the population simply doesn't use them. So they're imported with rich folks in mind, so we often get jacked up prices. Marine items, even more so. My skimmer for my 63g tank cost me $375. That is over half of a month's rent for my four bedroom house!