ick troubles

[annandgizmo]

My coral 200 looks grear--my coral are growing and very happy!! Unfortunately, all that attention to coral tak has led to my 90 to develop ick and all but one of my fish succombed to it I used flagyl,garlic, and Ick attack.

My reticulated puffer died--quite sad! as did my dogvface. My huma huma never was affected.

So the question is,when can I add fish again safetly?? I do have quite a bit of live rock in tank.--does that rock need to be treated?:thumbdown:fish2:

And does anyone know a good wholesalers to order from??:sad2::sad2:

 

[strike2867]

Sorry for your losses.

As you now know, flagyl ,garlic, and Ick attack are all snake oil that do nothing to treat Ick.

You need to get the last fish out of there, treat the poor guy for Ick using the correct methods (Tank Transfer, Copper, etc.)

The tank needs to be without fish for 8-10 weeks. The longer the better.

 

[gji]

ick troubles

I have always used hypo salinity method with great success. Less stressful on the fish than using chemicals

 

[DgenR8]

First step is to know your enemy...
[ich]

 

[ostrow]

Flagyl is metronidazole. Used properly it can in fact be effective. But must be consumed with food. There are threads on this in archives now so old....

 

[strike2867]

Flagyl is metronidazole. Used properly it can in fact be effective. But must be consumed with food. There are threads on this in archives now so old....

That information is wrong. The posts are old because it can't be used to treat Ick, and in most threads you'll find someone either saying that, or explaining why. This is another example of how it didn't treat Ick.

 

[ostrow]

That information is wrong. The posts are old because it can't be used to treat Ick, and in most threads you'll find someone either saying that, or explaining why. This is another example of how it didn't treat Ick.

Unless you are a marine biologist with research contradicting the work of others, in which case please share, you are incorrect.

Bound to food, the metro prevents cysts from holding to the fish. Dosing flatly will do nothing. Confirming fish consume in food it will and does work.

 

[strike2867]

Unless you are a marine biologist with research contradicting the work of others, in which case please share, you are incorrect.

Bound to food, the metro prevents cysts from holding to the fish. Dosing flatly will do nothing. Confirming fish consume in food it will and does work.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2212524

"I refer to Ed Noga's Fish Disease book and James Carpenters's Exotic animal formulary and see no scientific backing to show metro working on kryptocaryon"


Some info about Dr Ed Noga: http://en.microcosmaquariumexplorer.com/wiki/Edward_J._Noga

Is that official enough for you?

 

[ostrow]

Depends what they mean by "working on."

Plenty of recent research on the use I indicate above. Prevents trophoblast from latching on and treats secondary infections from prior wounds. But not dosed to tank.

 

[strike2867]

Depends what they mean by "working on."

Plenty of recent research on the use I indicate above. Prevents trophoblast from latching on and treats secondary infections from prior wounds. But not dosed to tank.

Do you have a link to said research, I tried googling but nothing jumped out.

 

[ostrow]

Search RC archives on username Rondolet (I think....he isn't on here much any more) for a few discussions, explanations, and if I recall right references.

The archives for Seachem also will have a thread. It explains why Seachem can market it (very strict FDA rules at play) as a treatment for crypt.

It is well researched.

In some situations, capturing a fish, moving to a QT, changing parameters, catching again and moving to display can have far worse effects on a fish's health than the feeding medicated food method.

None of this negates the preferred method of prior QT, and never introducing the parasite.

But that, sadly, does not always work or is not always possible....

 

[strike2867]

Search RC archives on username Rondolet (I think....he isn't on here much any more) for a few discussions, explanations, and if I recall right references.

The archives for Seachem also will have a thread. It explains why Seachem can market it (very strict FDA rules at play) as a treatment for crypt.

It is well researched.

In some situations, capturing a fish, moving to a QT, changing parameters, catching again and moving to display can have far worse effects on a fish's health than the feeding medicated food method.

None of this negates the preferred method of prior QT, and never introducing the parasite.

But that, sadly, does not always work or is not always possible....

Here's the user: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/member.php?u=104791

Here's his last post about metro and Ich: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=766713

It is from 2006. He said, "has been spot free for three weeks"

As has been pointed out many times, spot free doesn't mean the fish doesn't have Ich, just that it's in another stage.

I pointed you to a PHD in Fish Disease who published a book about it in 2010. You've sent me on a wild goose chase to find some guy who doesn't seem to even understand what Ich free means.

Until you have an actual study, not "go look through the archives", metro is snake oil at best.

 

[ostrow]

You have difficulty comprehending.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.htm

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/disease/marineich.php

Your last line is patently false. Metronidazole is a well known and widely used anti-protozoan, used by doctors and vets for treating both humans and animals of all sorts, against a broad range of infestations.

Read what I have written and cited carefully, and consider.

The OP asks for help in tank. Read again. Feeding the correct recipe using metronidazole CAN help IF the food and medicine are ingested, fights ONE phase of the cycle, MUST continue at least 28days after all signs have passed, and is NOT guaranteed to cure. But many, many have had success in these undesirable circumstances and the drug is approved for use in this way for this purpose.

Those are facts; denying them is your choice, but they nevertheless remain facts.

Sometimes removal from display is neither practical nor possible. Also fact, like it or not.

 

[teebone110]

Hi Ostrow- Thanks for sharing your success with Metroplex + Focus.
Its been very difficult to get any successful documentation about this combo and I appreciate your postings.

Ironically, I have tried a number of various methods, and am currently using the basic Metroplex + Focus combo, as recommended by SeaChem. I spoke with them recently and am following their directions . I am using 1 scoop of Metro and 2 scoops of Focus, added to PE Mysis and currently at Day 3... I will keep you posted.

FYI, here are the links from your postings in the archive that I found very helpful, glad to have read these...

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=710070&highlight=metronidazole

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=687775&highlight=metronidazole+ich

 

[strike2867]

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.htm

Is from 2003. It says,

The medicated foods are a good option for use as a preventative, for mild infestations, or when used in conjunction with one of the other less effective treatments, such as biological controls

I see no scientific basis here. Nothing says it cures it, just that you won't see it anymore. If you did nothing, and the fish didn't succumb to the disease, you will also never see it again, even though the fish is tortured by it. The doctor you asked for said there is no scientific evidence it helps. The only cited evidence about Metro in there was that it possibly hurts the fish's digestive system. Specifically

could have deleterious affects to the beneficial microflora of a fish's intestine, much like the side effects to Copper exposure (Dr. Charles Moon, aka moonpod, pers. comm.)

As for your second source

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/disease/marineich.php

Now this one is just full of wrong. Let's start with their effective cures,

The least intrusive way to treat this disease is by changing 50% of the water each day for two weeks. This removes the parasites. This method is most suited to be used for treating one fish in a hospital tank and not for an entire aquarium. It is very important to match the temperature and salinity of the old water when using this method.

It doesn't even take into account the full life cycle of Ich, http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1992196. The entire time you're doing these stupid half water changes, the Ich is just on the rocks/glass/whatever dividing. There is a ton of Ich in the water, and you think 50% water change is going to remove it??? That's just ridiculous.

It gets better though with this statement,

Mild cases of marine ich can be treated biologically with the help of cleaner shrimp. Cleaner shrimp can also help prevent the disease from ever erupting.

Ich is under the skin, and as noted many times, Cleaner Shrimp do nothing for Ich, as noted by this response http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9385241&postcount=8

These are old sources, the second with wildly inaccurate information.

Until you provide something more current, it's plainly snake oil.

 

[bonoxious]

I've definitely had success with the Metro/Focus diet. Placebo or not, I can see great results in relation to signs of ich after a few weeks of consistent feeding. I just wrapped up a 30 day regimen and I'm beginning another one soon because I added a few more fish. I'm a fan of 2 x 30-day routine to knock out the issue.

If in fact it's snake oil, I'm a huge fan of it over hypo, copper, or any means of QT that makes it necessary to have a separate tank. Try it out for yourself. The worst you're doing is feeding your fish well

 

[strike2867]

I've definitely had success with the Metro/Focus diet. Placebo or not, I can see great results in relation to signs of ich after a few weeks of consistent feeding. I just wrapped up a 30 day regimen and I'm beginning another one soon because I added a few more fish. I'm a fan of 2 x 30-day routine to knock out the issue.

If in fact it's snake oil, I'm a huge fan of it over hypo, copper, or any means of QT that makes it necessary to have a separate tank. Try it out for yourself. The worst you're doing is feeding your fish well

Wow. Just a perfect reminder of https://youtu.be/WA0wKeokWUU?t=121

I've linked to scientific evidence saying it has no benefit. In another link studies show it's detrimental to the fish digestive system. But you're being "Morning Joe", if somebody says it's a magic pill, I want some of that.

I get that it's easy to look at Metro, find some people who have no clue about Ich say it works for them, and try it yourself. It's human to do that. But if you look at science, everything clearly points out that it has no benefit and is possibly even detrimental. Everybody wants the magic tank pill, but there just isn't one. Can we once and for all move on from this one, or do more people have to watch their fish die before you finally realize the science?

 

[Vapour1ze]

I've learned to live with it. It's been quite sometime since I have seen ich re-appear. With proper water quality, water changes, nutrition and happiness, your fish will survive. Some strands are worse than others. I used to have it bad, I started feeding with Metro + Focus + Selco. I haven't seen Ich in my system since... Haven't lost a single fish. Reason I bring this up is because, in the beginning, I had ich, pulled all my fish and did a QT and fallow for 10 weeks. Re-introduced, few weeks later, ich! Fallow again, QT again, reintroduce. Ich! I've spoke with so many people in the hobby for years and years and some actually believe it's always present and will make an appearance sooner or later. Especially with coral additions and blah blah blah. Unless you QT every single thing for 10 weeks minimum without fish it's going to be ich infested waters at some point.

I chose good water quality, and exceptional diet. I have not fed with metro/focus/selco in at least 4 months, and haven't seen ich on any of my fish since.

Just my .02 cents.

Oh and PS: I was even desperate enough to try that Dewormer, (levamisole hydrochloride) WITH NO SUCCESS!

Good luck to you! Cheers,

 

[joesfiddy]

^ what he said