Interesting Zeolite/nutrient thread in SPS forum

Yes, tables 1 ,2 & 3 show there is not that much of a difference to worry about ;) I was a little surprised.:(
 
Randy Holmes-Farley said:
Why do you suppose they did not test sodium?
Click to expand...

They talk about sodium and the various placement of sodium in the affinty serie depending on the publication.

The way they did the experiment (batch process) and the initial form of the clinoptilolite (sodium form) each mol/L uptake of ammonia or other cation would displace sodium and add the same mol/L of sodium into solution thus changing the medium.

Based on the amount of ammonia concentrations used and the amount removed from solution it looks like that ammonia had a far higher affinity for the clino than sodium.

It even looks like (in a quick glance) that sodium has a lower affinity than magnesium in their experiments for the type of clino used.


I'm not sure if that was your answer? :)
 
Yes, but my concern reflects the fact that sodium in seawater is so much higher in concentration than any of those other ions. :)

The experiment is easily done by putting in much more sodium than could come off.
 
Randy Holmes-Farley said:
Yes, but my concern reflects the fact that sodium in seawater is so much higher in concentration than any of those other ions. :)

The experiment is easily done by putting in much more sodium than could come off.
Click to expand...

That's why I was initially (and still) interested in knowing how much higher the affity for ammonia is compared to the other cations. :)

I think it would be worthwile to obtain some clino and perhaps also the zeovit stuff, condition it with ammonia free seawater and then do a batch experiment by spiking with ammonia.
 
Hab

Does this help ?

http://www.gsaresources.com/cationexchange.htm

From the same site

http://www.gsaresources.com/toc.htm


Just me reading some things;

Zeolites have a critical advantage as model cation exchangers in that their swelling is not significant and salt imbibition is usually very samell under concentrations commonly used to study their exchange properties.

----------------

This is illistrated by the observation that the presence of small concentrations of ammonia in solution can cause dramatic increases in cation exchange capactiy, presumably because the zeolite prefers the complex ions created by the presence of the ammine ligand (-NH3) over the orginally uncomplexed ions in solution.

---------------


In a zeolite ion exchange the rate controlling step is the so-called particle diffusion process. This means that the rate of exchange depends upon the diffusion of cations, water molecules or cation-water complexes, through the zeolite framework.

At very low external cation concentrations the rate-controlling step to zeolite cation exchange can shift to the solution phase. Now the rate of exchange is depenent upon progress through the Nernst Layer of orientated water molecules close to each zeolite partilce surface. This is called "film diffusion" and is easily recongnized as how the rate of diffusion is affected by the speed of agitation.

Randy

Yes, but my concern reflects the fact that sodium in seawater is so much higher in concentration than any of those other ions.

You would think that the Law of Mass Action would apply here :confused:
 
I did a few quick experiments with a zeolite , if I assume that the information from the supplier is correct and is actually zeolite and not something else.

The amount used was approx. 10 gram of zeolite per 100 milliliter of water so that would equate to approx. 2 pounds (1 kilo) per 2.5 gallons (10 liter).

It lowered the ammonia concentration in both tapwater and seawater.

The effect in seawater was much lower but still significant.

For both seawater and freshwater the time to see the effects was many hours.

I also measured nitrite and nitrate and it can be excluded that the decrease in ammonia was caused by transformation to nitrite or nitrate.

I can't exclude that the observed decrease in ammonia was due to incorporation into bateria because neither the waters nor the zeolite and containers were sterile and also not the set up.

However, the samples using zeolite were compared with controls.


Since they were just quick experiments I would not feel comfortable to give the amounts of ammonia removed.
 
The amount used was approx. 10 gram of zeolite per 100 milliliter of water so that would equate to approx. 2 pounds (1 kilo) per 2.5 gallons (10 liter).


How large was the ammonia drop? That is one hefty load of zeolite. My new 90 gallon tank would, at that rate, use 72 pounds of zeolite. :lol:
 
This post isn't off topic, yet related:

I've been told that there is a thread here on Reef-Central where someone uses only one of those "Potions" sold by Thomas Pohl and still is receiving "good" results (brighter corals with less zooxanthellae).
An analysis of this liquid has shown that there is some kind of weed-ex in it wich will simply kill algae.

I don't claim this to be true, for it was just a rumour about a thread, but I wasn't able to find such a thread. If anyone knows about it please drop me a line.


On Topic:

Regardless what Zeoliths do in saltwater environments it might just be that Thomas Pohl has experimented and discouvered a method that "somehow" works, modified and eventually brought it to the market. It may well be that he doesn't know what's happening at all and that indeed the zeoliths are a futile fragment remaining from a trial and error analysis.
This is only speculation of course. You can reach incredible colourful corals with his system and that is what counts to some extend.
 
I remember claims of Al, Fe and urine but not a weed killer unless is was in jest and I just ignored it (but I doubt that could happen :lol: ).

SteveU
 
Regardless what Zeoliths do in saltwater environments it might just be that Thomas Pohl has experimented and discouvered a method that "somehow" works, modified and eventually brought it to the market. It may well be that he doesn't know what's happening at all and that indeed the zeoliths are a futile fragment remaining from a trial and error analysis.
This is only speculation of course. You can reach incredible colourful corals with his system and that is what counts to some extend.

Perhaps. I personally wouldn't add something that I did not understand how or why it worked, unless I had great trust in someone who did, or I had an overriding interest in the observable effects (like coloration) regardless of other possible effects.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7514267#post7514267 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kennyangel
some kind of weed-ex

Click to expand...
2.4D or round up, i should have known :)
or maybe Basagran, hmmm, there are so many to chose from :D
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7514613#post7514613 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
Regardless what Zeoliths do in saltwater environments it might just be that Thomas Pohl has experimented and discouvered a method that "somehow" works, modified and eventually brought it to the market. It may well be that he doesn't know what's happening at all and that indeed the zeoliths are a futile fragment remaining from a trial and error analysis.
This is only speculation of course. You can reach incredible colourful corals with his system and that is what counts to some extend.

Perhaps. I personally wouldn't add something that I did not understand how or why it worked, unless I had great trust in someone who did, or I had an overriding interest in the observable effects (like coloration) regardless of other possible effects.
Click to expand...

That's the difference in human personality. Its like a company who is on the cutting edge of technology.. they may lose or they may win from it.
 
Yes, although you can be cutting edge, and still have your clients know what the product is, even if you do not know all there is to know about how it works.

In my field, pharmaceuticals, that is a hallmark that has made the industry successful in moving away from snake oils.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7514329#post7514329 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GTR
I remember claims of Al, Fe and urine but not a weed killer unless is was in jest and I just ignored it (but I doubt that could happen :lol: ).

SteveU
Click to expand...

Isn't urine a form of weed killer? :D

I know this thread is rather extinct but what can I say I find it rather interesting. Personally, I had never had any true interest in zeovite. None of the information seemed to make sense so I wasn't going to invest in something that can be looked at as snake oil. However, the more I find myself interested in nitrate and phosphate control within the reef environment this has become more of a focal point for me.

To be honest this is still of topic for what I'm truly interested in at the moment but have had a decent time filtering through the papers and ideas presented here. I couldn't help but ponder something I've seen on multiple RC threads and wonder if it may help on what is clinoptilolite actually accomplishing?

Randy's last statement on pharmaceuticals is really the reason I'm posting. I'm proposing two hypotheticals here on how zeovite may have had reasons to be placed in saltwater. One came after reading the publications about waste water one may assume that the zeolite would actually help remove ammonia beneficially. So you put it in your tank during cycling to decrease the initial swing but its shown not to work well in saltwater. But overtime you find that you see an added benefit to the tank so you keep it.

Or.... zeolite's ability to sequester ions (the ones around and above ammonia) are actually the key. What if its introduction is just to keep any negative effects of heavy metals you may be adding to the tank from all the zeo additives?

On RC people have complained of low potassium levels when running a zeo system. If this zeolite has an affinity for such then wouldn't the decrease indicate that it is sequestering a sufficient amount out of the water? So anything above it would also be reduced overtime within the system.

Cs > Rb > K > NH4 > Ba > Sr > Na > Ca > Fe > Al > Mg > Li

Anyways, random thoughts.
 
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