Invert Safe Marine Ich Medication/Solution?

[FishDad2]

Is there such a thing as an invert safe medication/solution for marine ich?

From what I've read in the stickys it looks like copper and hyposalinity are my only option but each will kill off my inverts...not to mention their impact to the live rock.

Ufortunately my current tank is a 225 gallon FOWL with a large refugium and it simply isn't a realistic possibility that I could tear it all down to capture all the fish and inverts. I will have to treat the DT and its inhabitants...which likely means that I will have to kill all the inverts I can't rescue prior to starting treatment...be it with copper of hyposalinity.

It has been forever since I've had to treat ich in one of my tanks so I'm hoping for a miracle..anyone with a ray of hope for me?

 

[greenskull]

I'm remember reading years ago a company called Ruby made a product called "Kick Ich" that was supposed to be reef safe. You could google it see what comes up.

 

[geaux xman]

How many fish do you have? You can drain the tank to catch all the fish and treat them in a separate tank. Let the DT sit fallow for 8-10 weeks.

Either that or you can just live with ich and just hope for the best.

 

[Pumpkin Bear]

Can you put your LR in Brute garbage bins with power heads while you treat the tank? It would be a real hassle but maybe not as much as taking the fish out.

 

[snorvich]

Please read the stickies. There is no reef safe treatment for ich.

 

[FishDad2]

I've been reading the stickies...was hoping for an alternative, although I pertty much expected the response I got from snorvich.

Kick-Ich sounds like a possibility but as it's only desigend to kill the parasites in their free swimming stage, it does nothing for fish already infrected. Worse yet, per the stickies, this is a classic example of a "cure" that fools you into thinking you've cured the problem when really it's still in the tank hiding from your view...likely in the gills of a fish that developed resistance and didn't die. The last thing I need is a cure that just masks the problem.

Hence the statement from snorvich (and in the stickies) that there are no reef safe cures.

As for draining the tank, removing the rock and catching all the critters, it's a monumental task to say the least...but one where I may have no choice if I want to save my inverts. Of course the rock itself would need to be treated as well so would need to go back in the tank for the treatment period, would it not? If I remove it and leave it out could it not be housing some parasites that will reinfect the tank when I return it to the DT?

I need to continue reading the stickies and weigh my options. It seems like doing what I can to capture the inverts and then either dosing copper or employing hyposalinity will be my best alternatives...and I'll have to treat the entire system (DT & refugium) in order to ensure there are no parasites left hiding that will reinfect the fish once normal operations are resumed.

I has been 20 years since I've had to deal with ich and it this sucks just as much as it did 20 years ago...even more now that I have a huge tank filled with live rock and inverts!!

 

[MrTuskfish]

I've been reading the stickies...was hoping for an alternative, although I pertty much expected the response I got from snorvich.

Kick-Ich sounds like a possibility but as it's only desigend to kill the parasites in their free swimming stage, it does nothing for fish already infrected. Worse yet, per the stickies, this is a classic example of a "cure" that fools you into thinking you've cured the problem when really it's still in the tank hiding from your view...likely in the gills of a fish that developed resistance and didn't die. The last thing I need is a cure that just masks the problem.

Hence the statement from snorvich (and in the stickies) that there are no reef safe cures.

As for draining the tank, removing the rock and catching all the critters, it's a monumental task to say the least...but one where I may have no choice if I want to save my inverts. Of course the rock itself would need to be treated as well so would need to go back in the tank for the treatment period, would it not? If I remove it and leave it out could it not be housing some parasites that will reinfect the tank when I return it to the DT?

I need to continue reading the stickies and weigh my options. It seems like doing what I can to capture the inverts and then either dosing copper or employing hyposalinity will be my best alternatives...and I'll have to treat the entire system (DT & refugium) in order to ensure there are no parasites left hiding that will reinfect the fish once normal operations are resumed.

I has been 20 years since I've had to deal with ich and it this sucks just as much as it did 20 years ago...even more now that I have a huge tank filled with live rock and inverts!!

Hypo & copper also only kill ich in the free swimming stage. The elusive search for a reef safe ich cure is the possibly the most common topic on the disease forum. So far, nothing even comes close, IMO & IME.
IMO, you have to find some way to get all the fish into HTs (even Brute totes) and leave the system fishless for 9+ weeks; the inverts can stay. Getting LR, a fuge, inverts, etc, back to normal after hypo or copper would be next to impossible.

 

[MuffsAbby]

Of course the rock itself would need to be treated as well so would need to go back in the tank for the treatment period, would it not? If I remove it and leave it out could it not be housing some parasites that will reinfect the tank when I return it to the DT?

You don't need to treat the rock. You only need to remove the fish and treat them. You might need to remove the rock if you can't catch the fish with the rock still in, but once the fish are caught and into a treatment tank, the rock can go back in. The DT (rock and all) then needs to sit fishless for 8-10 weeks (I'd err on the side of caution and go with 10), following which the fish (by then treated) can go back in. Any parasites that might be in the rock will die off in the 10 week fallow period if there are no fish in the tank to host the parasites.

 

[FishDad2]

I just when through the horror of re-aquascaping my tank as part of changing the tank from a reef to FOWLR...removed the LR and changed the whole thing around. The thought of doing it again is giving me chest pains.

As well, when I went through that process the last time there was 1 fish (Royal Gramma) I couldn't capture because it hid inside a hole in a rock I couldn't remove. It seems that after years of running as a reef there was some calcification of the substrate around a few rocks and I simply could not break them free from the plumbing. Consequently, that last fish remained in the tank throughout the process and therein my confidence in being able to remove all of the fish from the tank is low, even if I do go through the horror of pulling out the live rock.

Were it not for this recent experience I'd be pulling rock out now and preparing to catch all my fish for removal to a HT...even if the HT were a Brute can. But, given that I know I can't remove a few of the rocks and that the Royal Gramma will no doubt hide in one of these locations, I fear that my only option will be to hypo or copper the DT.

Given the circumstances, I think the plan has to be the following...

1. Remove as much LR and as many inverts as I can from the DT

1a. Wish my pistol shrimp a fond farewell...it was a fine shrimp

2. Put the inverts and LR in the fuge...employ large Brute cans with powerheads for any LR that won't fit in the fuge

3. Isolate the DT from the fuge

4. Hypo the DT with the fish and a minimal LR, sandbed and invert population in the tank

5. Perform frequent water changes in the DT as the bioload processing capacity will be low given the removal of the LR and the inevitable die-off of the remaining inverts will simultaneously increase the bioload on a weakened filtering system

6. Carefully maintain salinity in the DT under hypo conditions

7. After 4 to 5 weeks of hypo, slowly return the DT to normal salinity

8. Observe the fish in the DT for 5 to 6 weeks (total 10 week treatment cycle...hypo & post-hypo observation period) to ensure no signs of ich

9. After 10 weeks with no sign of parasites, return the LR to the DT and reintegrate with the refugium

10. Observe carefully and if the parasites return, dance the horrible dance all over again if necessary

Anyone have any suggestions/modifications for my approach?

Thanks for your help...just wish I didn't need it!!!

Chris

 

[snorvich]

You don't need to treat the rock. You only need to remove the fish and treat them. You might need to remove the rock if you can't catch the fish with the rock still in, but once the fish are caught and into a treatment tank, the rock can go back in. The DT (rock and all) then needs to sit fishless for 8-10 weeks (I'd err on the side of caution and go with 10), following which the fish (by then treated) can go back in. Any parasites that might be in the rock will die off in the 10 week fallow period if there are no fish in the tank to host the parasites.

Susan is exactly right.

 

[snorvich]

Given the circumstances, I think the plan has to be the following...

[edited]

7. After 4 to 5 weeks of hypo, slowly return the DT to normal salinity

I recommend 9 weeks rather than 4-5 weeks

8. Observe the fish in the DT for 5 to 6 weeks (total 10 week treatment cycle...hypo & post-hypo observation period) to ensure no signs of ich

Visible signs of ich are not a good way to ascertain it is gone

Hypo is the absolutely most difficult way of eliminating ich as it is extraordinarily sensitive to screwing up. If the SG goes above 1.009, the clock restarts. If your measuring tool is not exceptionally accurate, you will not be successful.

/QUOTE]

 

[FishDad2]

OK.

I do have a refractometer and would calibrate it before I begin treatment. I appreciate the warning though and will ponder hypo versus copper.

If I go with copper, I have a few questions:

1. What's the recommended treatment period? I assume it's again 9 weeks to cover the maximum lifecycle of the parasites...correct?

2. Are there preferred types of copper or any to be avoided?

3. Will the use of UV negatively impact the copper treatment?

4. How frequently should copper be dosed? I'll buy a good test kit and check the levels periodically but should I just dose as I observe the levels dropping or am I better off mixing solution and using my old reef dosing pump to supply some at regular intervals throughout the day?

5. If a solution and dosing pump is recommended, what's the formula for mixing the solution?

6. Any issues with copper for the following fish list?

Heniochus Butterfly
Auriga Butterfly
Semilavartus Butterfly
Bangaii Cardinal
Six-Line Wrasse
Lyretail Anthias
Royal Gramma

Fortunately, the fish appear to be strong and are eating well right now and, aside from a few of them having the grains of salt on them, they appear otherwise happy and healthy. Hopefully it bodes well for a positive outcome.

I want to maximize my chances of success in eliminating this problem...avoid disaster and recurrences...your assistance is greatly appreciated!!


Thanks,
Chris

 

[snorvich]

OK.

I do have a refractometer and would calibrate it before I begin treatment. I appreciate the warning though and will ponder hypo versus copper.

I prefer tank transfer, then copper, then hypo. But with tank transfer you would need a place to park the fish while the display tank is fallow for the full nine weeks. That is the surest method.

If I go with copper, I have a few questions:

1. What's the recommended treatment period? I assume it's again 9 weeks to cover the maximum lifecycle of the parasites...correct?

Well, yes and no. There is still the lifecycle problem but copper is not good for fish, especially long term so I recommend 4 weeks followed by five weeks of observation.

2. Are there preferred types of copper or any to be avoided?

I prefer cupramine

3. Will the use of UV negatively impact the copper treatment?

UV has no effect on copper or parasites

4. How frequently should copper be dosed? I'll buy a good test kit and check the levels periodically but should I just dose as I observe the levels dropping or am I better off mixing solution and using my old reef dosing pump to supply some at regular intervals throughout the day?

test nightly

5. If a solution and dosing pump is recommended, what's the formula for mixing the solution?

6. Any issues with copper for the following fish list?

Heniochus Butterfly
Auriga Butterfly
Semilavartus Butterfly
Bangaii Cardinal
Six-Line Wrasse
Lyretail Anthias
Royal Gramma

Fortunately, the fish appear to be strong and are eating well right now and, aside from a few of them having the grains of salt on them, they appear otherwise happy and healthy. Hopefully it bodes well for a positive outcome.

I want to maximize my chances of success in eliminating this problem...avoid disaster and recurrences...your assistance is greatly appreciated!!


Thanks,
Chris

 

[FishDad2]

I picked up some cupramine and will begin the process.

The mfg recommends 14 days but 4 weeks sounds like a better bet to me given that the copper itself is toxic to the fish, not just the parasites and inverts.

I'll start pulling the rocks out tonight and with luck catch all the fish...but I expect that royal gramma to be a troublemaker and force me to treat directly in the DT. We'll see...perhaps I'll get lucky.

 

[slee013]

i might get flamed for this, but this is what I did, and it has worked for me..

I dosed coppersafe (per instructions) into my 250g FOWLR display tank..Now, 3 weeks later, my tank is still going strong and no problems whatsoever..(even hermit crabs are alive)....

I wouldnt recommend this solution as the first option, but I couldnt risk losing my black tang, scribbled angel and moorish idol to ich..they were all infested with white spots and there was literally no way to get them out (unless I tore down all rock)...(i didn't QT the black tang or moorish idol, since I didnt want them to stress out and die in a QT, so off they went from the LFS directly into my tank-bad move obviously)


FYI, 4 days after dosing coppersafe, white spots all went away. No ill effects 3 weeks later.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I picked up some cupramine and will begin the process.

The mfg recommends 14 days but 4 weeks sounds like a better bet to me given that the copper itself is toxic to the fish, not just the parasites and inverts.

I'll start pulling the rocks out tonight and with luck catch all the fish...but I expect that royal gramma to be a troublemaker and force me to treat directly in the DT. We'll see...perhaps I'll get lucky.

I've used Cupramine for years and have talked to SeaChem's tech tech people a few times. IMO, the bottle instructions really need to be modified in a few ways. 1.)Two weeks simply isn't enough, it doesn't even cover one complete life-cycle of the ich parasite. I think 4 weeks is about right; with a few weeks close observation in the QT following. 2.) The bottle increases the dosage much to quickly and to a higher concentration than necessary. IMO & IME; Cu should be increased, over several days if possible, to about .35-.40 ppm. This is under the .50 level on the bottle and very effective (SeaChem agrees); and certainly easier on the fish. If you need some help, I'd call SeaChem tech help, they're great. here's some vital info on Cupramine, the FAQ are great.http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Cupramine.html

 

[FishDad2]

Cool...thanks for the info!!

 

[sarahlovesfish]

Many big water changes might be a solution. If you want to keep your inverts alive, you could try that.

 

[snorvich]

i might get flamed for this, but this is what I did, and it has worked for me..

I dosed coppersafe (per instructions) into my 250g FOWLR display tank..Now, 3 weeks later, my tank is still going strong and no problems whatsoever..(even hermit crabs are alive)....

I wouldnt recommend this solution as the first option, but I couldnt risk losing my black tang, scribbled angel and moorish idol to ich..they were all infested with white spots and there was literally no way to get them out (unless I tore down all rock)...(i didn't QT the black tang or moorish idol, since I didnt want them to stress out and die in a QT, so off they went from the LFS directly into my tank-bad move obviously)


FYI, 4 days after dosing coppersafe, white spots all went away. No ill effects 3 weeks later.

We here at RC do not believe in flaming people. However, it is unclear that you are out of the woods with ich since the absence of visible signs of it does not necessarily mean your tank is devoid. Report back in 9 weeks.

 

[Stu Pickles]

If you did not have a hospital tank readily available how would you suggest to go about it? Transfer water from your DT as if you were doing a water change to another empty tank and transfer the fish to that tank/brute tote?