Invert Safe Marine Ich Medication/Solution?

[geaux xman]

You can try sectioning off your DT with eggcrate to help catch all the fish. Try to move all your rock to one side of the tank will help.

I will tell you right now, obtaining the proper therapeutic copper levels on a 225g tank with a bunch of rock(and sand?) in it will be very difficult. You will have to probably dose over twice as much and then wonder what your cupramine level is at. Add too much copper and risk overdosing the fish.

I think the best solution is catching all the fish and treating in a 40g breeder(sale at petco). Run a big Aquaclear HOB filter(big sponge) and that will take care of your ammonia problems.

G'luck.

 

[slee013]

We here at RC do not believe in flaming people. However, it is unclear that you are out of the woods with ich since the absence of visible signs of it does not necessarily mean your tank is devoid. Report back in 9 weeks.

this is the second display FOWLR tank i've dosed copper in. The first tank is still running and no signs of ich, even to a princess parrotfish I added without QT 6 months after removing the cooper...This current tank with copper has been dosed for 3 weeks (probably 4, as I added first week of June) and so far all fish look perfect....Regardless, as you request, I will report back in 9 weeks.....:thumbsup:


P.S. when I refered to the "flamed for this" comment, it was more in jest, as I know ithat treating a display tank is something that is NOT standard practice nor recommended, but I'm doing it anyways like a rebel, lol......I wasn't literally expecting to get flamed, and if I did, I wouldnt care one bit.. :dance:

 

[snorvich]

P.S. when I refered to the "flamed for this" comment, it was more in jest, as I know ithat treating a display tank is something that is NOT standard practice nor recommended, but I'm doing it anyways like a rebel, lol......I wasn't literally expecting to get flamed, and if I did, I wouldnt care one bit.. :dance:

Yes, but we at RC would care as we absolutely do not want that type of activity. All should be able to express their opinion without worrying about being "flamed".

 

[FishDad2]

What I've decided to do is to remove all the rock that I can and make my best effort to capture all the fish so they can be removed to a HT setup for treatment. The problem, as I noted above, will be that there are a few rocks in the tank that I can't remove and which offer great hiding spots for the royal gramma and six-line wrasse. When I converted from a reef to a FOWLR I was able to catch the six-line but not the gramma...my fear right now is that I'll be in the same position again.

Given all that, my best options appear to be:

#1 If I can capture all of the fish, I'll put the rock back in the DT and setup a HT for the fish...employ cupramine and the transfer method to cure the fish, and let the DT setup run fishless for 9+ weeks.

#2 If I can't capture all of the fish I'll have no alternative but to treat in the DT. In this case I'll try to capture all the inverts that I can so as to keep the damage to a minimum. From there, I'll isolate the DT from the refugium and treat the fish in the DT with Cupramine while the rock waits in a Brute (with circulation). I'll wait 9+ weeks before returning the rock to the DT or reconnecting the DT to the refugium.

Obviously option #1 is greatly preferred and so I may need just be patient...target the capture of the most challenging fish first and worry about the easy catches once I have the challenges out of the way. Eggcrate and other materials may need to be employed in the process...we'll have to wait and see.

As I will need to be patient in my efforts to capture the fish this means more time will pass before treatment begins. My question now is to the degree of urgency in applying treatment. The heniochus is the most inffected fish...at least from what I can see. When I first posted this thread it had quite a few grains of salt of which roughly 90% were gone the next morning...the semilavartus also has some grains but not nearly as many as the heniochus. None of the other fish have visible signs.

Now, as we know, visible signs don't mean that the parasites are gone...treatment must still be rendered. But given that the fish are eating well and there are minimal visible signs of the parasites, what is the degree of urgency in treating the fish? Can I wait days to capture all the fish and remove them to a HT or do I simply need to start treatment a.s.a.p. in the DT if I'm not able to immediately capture all of the fish?

Hopefully I have some time and can be more deliberate in my approach but I don't want to take unnecessary risks.

Please advise.

Thanks,
Chris

 

[snorvich]

To catch fish, drain the tank (saving the water) to about 2 inches. Catching fish is then easy.

 

[MrTuskfish]

P.S. when I refered to the "flamed for this" comment, it was more in jest, as I know ithat treating a display tank is something that is NOT standard practice nor recommended, but I'm doing it anyways like a rebel, lol......I wasn't literally expecting to get flamed, and if I did, I wouldnt care one bit.. :dance:

Most of the posts on a forum are simply opinion, experience, or a combination of the two. Our hobby is not an exact science with a lot rules. There are exceptions to just about everything, and often the exceptions turn out to not be very exceptional. IMO & IME A successful hobbyist will research and select a solution to his/her (Ain't I PC?) particular question. This is how forums work. I'm sure most forum hobbyists have learned who has info that works for them and what info is just going against the grain of all knowledge. Some folks, sadly, often just look for the one in twenty with the opinion they want----and that justifies a poor decision. In any case, just about anything can happen once in a while in our hobby; but that doesn't make it good practice. But it does mean that all opinions and experiences have a right to be heard. ("Getting older means practicing restraint." .... anon.)

 

[FishDad2]

Draining the water isn't the problem...the problem is that the royal gramma will take refuge inside a rock that I can't pull out of the tank. Hopefully I can block the entrance or otherwise corner that fish and remove it.

 

[slee013]

Ok cool..well, Thank you RC staff for your perspective and position of RC posting. Again, the use of "flaming" was used in jest..it was not intended to spark a discussion in someone elses thread. I guess next time i should pick my words more carefully and tread more slowly than i already do when posting on here, so as to not spark unintended debates/discussion that ive seen on some threads.


Back on topic, good luck fishdad! I researched like crazy before i decided to dose copper in the display..i even gasped as i saw the liquid hit the water column, then get swished around with the PW into a white cloud of white smoke like residue (literally)..i even went to bed that night wondering if i would wake up to a entire tank of dead fish..

Now, 3-4 weeks later, im glad i did as the fish have no visible signs and the fish who were infested the most (those hiding in rockwork) are now out and swimming/eating like pigs..

Feel free to PM me if you wish to know more about my experience. Obviously, a HT is best option, but i could take advantage of this preferred route!

 

[MrTuskfish]

Ok cool..well, Thank you RC staff for your perspective and position of RC posting. Again, the use of "flaming" was used in jest..it was not intended to spark a discussion in someone elses thread. I guess next time i should pick my words more carefully and tread more slowly than i already do when posting on here, so as to not spark unintended debates/discussion that ive seen on some threads.


Back on topic, good luck fishdad! I researched like crazy before i decided to dose copper in the display..i even gasped as i saw the liquid hit the water column, then get swished around with the PW into a white cloud of white smoke like residue (literally)..i even went to bed that night wondering if i would wake up to a entire tank of dead fish..

Now, 3-4 weeks later, im glad i did as the fish have no visible signs and the fish who were infested the most (those hiding in rockwork) are now out and swimming/eating like pigs..

Feel free to PM me if you wish to know more about my experience. Obviously, a HT is best option, but i could take advantage of this preferred route!

You may have gotten lucky, time will tell. In any case; IMO & IME, a DT should never be dosed with copper----even if it worked for you. The danger to inverts and the danger of ammonia triggered by the die-off of micro-life is obvious. But another main reason to never use Copper with LR & substrate is that it is impossible to monitor copper levels. LR & substrate absorb and release Cu from/into the water column. Copper must be constantly tested to be sure its deadly to ich, but not the fish. this is impossible in a DT. The only place Cu kills ich is in the water column while the ich is in the free swimming stage. If the water doesn't contain a therapeutic level of copper, 100% of the time, treatment can't be effective. I don't know what happened in your tank, but if inverts survived, I strongly suspect that Cu wasn't maintained at a high enough level to wipe out the ich. Ich cysts can take 9+ weeks to release their new generation of free-swimmers, starting the whole life-cycle over again and I'm afraid that you will see this in your tank. Very simply, according to a Chemist at a big University Aquaculture facility; " If copper doesn't kill most inverts (corals, crabs); it isn't at a level that will kill the ich theronts".

 

[slee013]

You may have gotten lucky, time will tell. In any case; IMO & IME, a DT should never be dosed with copper----even if it worked for you. The danger to inverts and the danger of ammonia triggered by the die-off of micro-life is obvious. But another main reason to never use Copper with LR & substrate is that it is impossible to monitor copper levels. LR & substrate absorb and release Cu from/into the water column. Copper must be constantly tested to be sure its deadly to ich, but not the fish. this is impossible in a DT. The only place Cu kills ich is in the water column while the ich is in the free swimming stage. If the water doesn't contain a therapeutic level of copper, 100% of the time, treatment can't be effective. I don't know what happened in your tank, but if inverts survived, I strongly suspect that Cu wasn't maintained at a high enough level to wipe out the ich. Ich cysts can take 9+ weeks to release their new generation of free-swimmers, starting the whole life-cycle over again and I'm afraid that you will see this in your tank. Very simply, according to a Chemist at a big University Aquaculture facility; " If copper doesn't kill most inverts (corals, crabs); it isn't at a level that will kill the ich theronts".

well, it did kill my coral..my GSP, mushrooms, candy canes, etc. died within 2-3 days..but that was the risk I was willing to take since I didn't want to risk losing my $500 black tang, among other fish I have in the system.

my goal was/is not to kill/eradicate the ich completely (I don't know if thats possible). My goal was to ensure that my moorish idol, black tang and scribbled angel, fish that seemed more damaged by the ich parasite survived and "got better"..so far, they have made a 360 degree turnaround to how they were the first week of June to now, first week of July.

These fish went from being spotted in white dots and hiding under the rockwork all day to now swimming freely in the water column with no spots whatsoever. With the black tang being solid/complete black, it's clear there there are no visible signs of white spots left..

of course, 4 weeks later, it does NOT mean ich is no longer in my system and certainly does NOT mean the fish in the system no longer have ich (since visible signs doesn't mean its cured)...

INSTEAD, what it does mean is that the fish have made a 360 degree turn for the better activity wise and physically, as they no longer look frail/weak and spotted. Thus, I am not fearful they will succumb to the ich and die like I did 4 weeks ago, when it was clear they only had 3-4 days to live.

If i do get lucky with this tank, it will be the second time. My other 150g FOWLR had copper dosed in the display over a year ago, and its still kicking strong with no new signs of ich. I even threw a couple mushroom rocks in there, new fish and no problems.

Lastly, I do agree that a display should NOT be dosed with copper..but in my case, I had no choice and based on success with my 150g FOWLR last year, my 250g seems to be heading towards the same "good" result..

HT/QT is best way, obviously..

 

[MrTuskfish]

^^^^^If everyone only listened to your last sentence! The fish (and their owners) that are lost because of not using a QT is amazing. ^^^^^^

 

[slee013]

true that MR. Tuskfish! very true..

 

[FishDad2]

I was able to outsmart the royal gramma this time and I caught all of the fish...everyone is in the HT now.

The question I have now relates to biological filtration, ammonia levels and the use of copper. The short of it is that the bio filter is not yet up to carry the load with all these fish in the tank so ammonia levels are rising...1 ppm this morning. I did a 50%+ water change and will measure again shortly...and another batch of clean water is percolating under a powerhead for the next water change.

Should I wait for the bio filter to catch up to the new load before I start with copper treatment or does it not matter because the copper will kill off the bacteria in the bio filter anyway?

Having not had to treat sick fish in more years than I can remember I'm a little rusty in this area and so I'm worried about creating a toxic soup if I add the copper while there's measurable ammonia in the HT.

Please advise.

 

[geaux xman]

if you have a 5-10lb rock from the DT that you could live without, transfer it to the HT and that will help with biofiltration until your bio-filter is ready(sponge?).

it will absorb some cupramine, but you can work around that and then later remove the rock. that is much better than having ammonia in the tank.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Some tidbits of Cu info. If time allows, try to get the fish eating before dosing Cu. Bring CU up slowly (5days) to about .35-40ppm. it isn't necessary to go to .5ppm as the bottle states. Plan lots of WCs. Don't use Prime, or similar ammonia-neutralizers, with copper; it forms lethal compounds. Copper won't kill off a bio-filter. Most ammonia test kits don't work with Cu, the stick-on badges do. If you have some type of filter media in your DT, that should help the ammonia if you keep it in a HOB filter in the QT. Here's some good info on cupramine. the FAQ are good and so is seaChem tech support. (888-seachem, I think.
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Cupramine.html

 

[FishDad2]

The ammonia levels are declining but it's still in there. I'm changing water regularly and have sacrificed some LR to increase the bio processing capacity in the tank.

As for eating habits, I finally saw the Bangaii Cardinal take a nibble, so that's a good sign. I remain concerned about the Royal Gramma though as it has spent 100% of its time hiding in the PVC elbow since it was moved to the HT...haven't seen it take a single bite of food. Hopefully it gets back to normal soon so I can start with the copper treatments. Regardless though, I will eventually need to treat whether it starts eating or not.

 

[Gill_bucket]

I'm remember reading years ago a company called Ruby made a product called "Kick Ich" that was supposed to be reef safe. You could google it see what comes up.

I have heard mixed results; and for the price to treat over 200 gallons it would not be fun if it didn't work.

 

[ArrowCrab]

There are some medications sold that claim to be reef safe but only kill the ick in its free swimming stage. Do these just not work as advertised, would it work if you dose the tank continually for approximately 3 months straight to get all the ick as it goes through the life cycle?

 

[bugs713]

Don't know if this was mentioned yet, but test your QT/HT for elevated NH3, NO3 levels daily! They can rise very fast in a QT/HT to deadly levels. I tested daily AND used one of those Ammonia badges for quick reference. I also did 20% water changes every other day and adjusted the Cu level accordingly.

I went 108 days fallow in my DT and lost one fish, a swallow tail angel, during QT/HT Cu treatment using Coppersafe and 8 months later and still Ich free so far! This is a big PITA but is worth it! NOW I QT all fish....

Good luck to you!

 

[MrTuskfish]

There are some medications sold that claim to be reef safe but only kill the ick in its free swimming stage. Do these just not work as advertised, would it work if you dose the tank continually for approximately 3 months straight to get all the ick as it goes through the life cycle?

All ich killing methods only kill ich in the free-swimming stage. Copper and hypo included. There is no such thing as a reef-safe ich cure, mainly because they cannot be kept at ich-lethal levels long enough for the ich to go through its life cycle or they don't kill ich at all, just repel it temporarily. (The hot-pepper products, et al.) You're right, many cures don't work as advertised and a true reef-safe ich cure is the holy grail of SW meds. Tank transfer, copper, hypo in a QT are the only things that work. There are some quinine meds that may work too (not reef-safe) ; but I've only read about them.
I think every hobbyist has looked for the miracle cure at one time or another (me included) : They don't exist. Of course, a rigid QT regimen will eliminate the problem before you have it. Every hobbyist must have heard this, but so few do it----until they have to go through the major PITA of treating a whole tank.